First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

Agulliver

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
3,564
Location
Luton, United Kingdom
Format
Multi Format
Hopefully relevant....my local lab is having trouble scanning Phoenix.

My roll was the first they received, and that was OK. But they've since received a bunch of rolls from the brick they sold last month and are having great difficulty scanning. The negs look OK, I've been shown some. They are using a Agfa DLab 2 mini lab with it's scanner.

Any ideas, people?
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
22,870
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
Any ideas, people?

Ask them to scan as color slides and do the post processing yourself. This will bypass (most of) the automatic corrections the D-Lab will try to make, putting you in charge of the inversion & color balancing. I use the following approach for inversions: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/flipped-doing-color-negative-inversions-manually/ If you have the files scanned as slides, you only have to determine the inversion & balancing curve for one (representative) frame and then apply the same correction to the entire roll.

The net result will be (a) better than the auto-corrected Agfa scans and (b) more consistent across the roll.
 

foc

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 30, 2010
Messages
2,519
Location
Sligo, Ireland
Format
35mm
Ask them to scan as color slides and do the post processing yourself.

To my knowledge, this won't work with negative scanning on a minilab. I never operated a D-lab but on Frontiers the only way the software will scan as a positive is when the image is mounted as a slide and the transparency carrier is used. In other words the carrier dictated what the software is to do. It is also a safeguard against operator error.

There may be a workaround with the software and carrier but I would imagine reprogramming would require some skill.

The D-2 would have a light source to make the scans. Could the lab try and use a blank/transparent colour negative with the orange mask between the light and the negative carrier? This could "fool" the software into thinking it was a normal C41 masked negative. Might be worth a go.

EDIT: I tried the above with old Agfa CN17 maskless negatives on a Frontier and it helped.
 
Last edited:

Agulliver

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
3,564
Location
Luton, United Kingdom
Format
Multi Format
QUick update on the lab. I poked my head in today and she's got roll of Phoenix that has the more pronounced purple/magenta mask. It's a roll from the brick that the shop obtained last month, so possibly slightly updated compared to mine which was from the launch. Definitely more purple than mine and she thinks more purple than the others she processed last month.

She did managed to scan the others by cutting the negs into individuals and mounting them as if they were slides. That's the only way the DLab2 will scan them as positives. That worked but is time consuming and labour intensive.

Today she had the more magenta roll and the exposures looked fine to the naked eye. I watched as the machine absolutely refused to scan them as colour negative. Threw up various errors and just spat the film out. But then we tried as B&W negative and it scanned them fine. Obviously in B&W which isn't much use to the customer but it gives some more clues.

The really odd thing is, mine scanned well fine first time. BUT....the caveat here might be that I followed Harman's advice and filled the frame with the subject. The few frames where there was sky, scanned with colours that needed correction but they did scan. Which lead to her recommending the Phoenix film to customers who are now without scans or prints!
 

blee1996

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 25, 2008
Messages
1,216
Location
SF Bay Area, California
Format
Multi Format
I just developed and scanned my second roll. It was exposed at ISO 200 and seems under-exposed. Not too bad, since it has a bit of glow in the dark vibe.


For example:
 

mshchem

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
14,655
Location
Iowa City, Iowa USA
Format
Medium Format
I just developed and scanned my second roll. It was exposed at ISO 200 and seems under-exposed. Not too bad, since it has a bit of glow in the dark vibe.


For example:

Pic of flowers is quite nice! And yes the negatives look a bit strange
 

Randy Stewart

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
Messages
278
Format
Medium Format

Does anyone seriously think that this film is being retailed because they had to produce a "large batch" in order to develop it? If so, nonsense. There is nothing about producing a new color film which requires large batch production. Further, Ilford/Harmon, unlike some others, does not need to practice coating or cutting large batch rolls. They made this film in retail quantities to sell at retail. They price it competitive with "real" color film. IMO, this is just a cynical run at generating some fast cash from a seriously uncompleted film. Why anyone would buy it at a price anywhere close to the price of a conventional film escapes me. What also escapes me is the suggestion that Ilford/Harmon needs to get revenue from sale of this product in order to fund finishing its development to a completed product. We are talking about the second largest film producer in the world today. If Ilford is financially compelled to sell this half-baked crap at full market price to afford the project, then: (1) They shouldn't have gotten into the pool is they cannot swim, and (2) As film consumers, we are in a world of hurt if Ilford is that close to insolvency again.
 

brbo

Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2011
Messages
2,104
Location
EU
Format
Multi Format
So Harman is either screwing us or is near bankruptcy.

I'll have the screwing, please.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
22,870
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
IMO, this is just a cynical run at generating some fast cash from a seriously uncompleted film.

It's just a way to partly fund their R&D. There are several ways of doing this, and selling an MVP is sometimes done in other industries as well.
As far as I can tell they're not even secretive about this; quite the opposite.

It also doesn't mean the company is near insolvency etc. and the remark about 'not being able to swim' is true for any actor in a marketplace doing something new. If that were an argument, we'd still be lighting fires by smashing stones together.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.
 

Don_ih

Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
7,741
Location
Ontario
Format
35mm RF
What also escapes me is the suggestion that Ilford/Harmon needs to get revenue from sale of this product in order to fund finishing its development to a completed product. We are talking about the second largest film producer in the world today.

It may be a major film manufacturer, but that doesn't mean they are operating much above the break even point once they pay for everything, including employees.

Anyway, I don't know if you've noticed, but a lot of the current resurgence of film is due to people screwing around with unknown or unusual things to get unusual or unexpected results. This is a great product for them. Most people wanting extreme colour accuracy, detail, and sharpness haven't touched film in 20 years.
 

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
19,956
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm
. Most people wanting extreme colour accuracy, detail, and sharpness haven't touched film in 20 years.

Don, it sounds as if those people haven't touched colour film for 20 years because even the best of colour film doesn't match what digital gives them in terms of quality or gives the rest of us for that matter. Is that a reasonable conclusion for me to draw?

Thanks

pentaxuser
 

Don_ih

Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
7,741
Location
Ontario
Format
35mm RF
Don, it sounds as if those people haven't touched colour film for 20 years because even the best of colour film doesn't match what digital gives them in terms of quality or gives the rest of us for that matter.

Whether it does or not in reality doesn't matter since it's what people believe.
 

GabrielC

Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
35
Location
France
Format
Analog
I really can’t fathom some people response to Harman Phoenix.
Frankly, we’re at a point where some things we couldn’t believe would happen even two years ago..

I get it that it is frankly disappointing compared to kodak's or fuji's offerings. However, as they said in many of their videos, it's only the step they're at right now, with only one year of experience.
I looked at many forum posts of the past, and it looked like many people thought that film coating is so complicated it can't really be done by any factory that didn't make some at any point in the past, or had some coating lines that did (ferrania, etc). And now we have one if not the most respectable actor of the film market that is making some new colour film out of nowhere, with pleasant colours, albeit with many problems that they're well aware of. I believe, they have at least an idea of how to improve upon it. They're being 100% transparent it seems.
Now, people don't want to buy a subpar film, that's fine, each their own, but saying they are scamming people is complete nonsense. Kodak skewed the outlook on film production maybe, it IS hard to do, and if we had to wait for them to get to kodak's level to sell coulour, we wouldn't see any new film for a decade, or even at all. I think it is important to vote with our wallets, if you can and if you want to.

Finally, when it comes to the quality of the film itself, I haven't finished a roll yet, but looking at this test by a film lab (link) , it can produce gorgeous result under the right conditions. The real dealbraker for me would be halation, but I will still help their quest for colour, as I did for color mission and Adox.
 

Agulliver

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
3,564
Location
Luton, United Kingdom
Format
Multi Format
Completely agree with @GabrielC above. I cannot fathom the negativity here. Harman are being completely open about what Phoenix is, and isn't. Maybe some of us got our hopes up regarding how close to "normal" it would be during the social media campaign but once it was revealed and explained, I was one of those who took the plunge and bought some. Not because I think it's the greatest thing since sliced Kodachrome, but because I want to try it and to support Harman in their ultimate goal of making something that is on a par with Kodak's offerings.

I am unsure if they could actually have made a very small batch....don't they have a minimum master roll size? But that's beside the point. We all know the financial numbers if we actually care enough to look....because Harman are obliged to make publicly available annual accounts. They've been picked over in this very thread. Harman are a healthy company, though not swimming in profits. They are in no way struggling and suggesting they might be close to insolvency is frankly both ludicrous and insulting.

It's really quite simple. Harman could quite happily have continued making the B&W products and a few sidelines such as the dark tent. They'd have gone along quite healthily for the foreseeable future and likely beyond. But seeing as consumer grade C41 film is both popular and in short supply, with Kodak effectively being the only coater now, they decided to diversify their business into colour film. That does require a lot of R&D and it will take time to perfect. Part of the R&D funding will come from sales of the Phoenix film.

If you don't want to buy Phoenix now, that's perfectly understandable and reasonable. If you do, that's also perfectly fine. But ask yourself this.....would you prefer a world where Harman stuck to B&W alone, or at least tried to make colour film? Because those are your two choices. You don't have to take part in the journey by buying the experimental film over the next few years, but you also don't have to poo-poo the project.

Only Kodak, Fuji, Agfa, Konica and perhaps Ferrania ever mastered production of C41 film. Four or five companies which were *huge* and investing tens of not hundreds of millions into R&D at the time. Harman may be the world's second biggest film manufacturer these days but they're still tiny compared to those behemoths of decades past. In those days, those companies could afford to "waste" the experiments that weren't up to scratch. Harman likely can't....and that doesn't mean they're in financial trouble, it simply means they're not a huge multinational company able to spend many millions on R&D on one product for several years running before seeing any return. You can bet that the money raised from selling Phoenix goes into further R&D and incremental steps towards making a film we'd all like to buy. Nobody in the film manufacturing world is getting rich. Nobody is in it to cream off the profits. Because even Eastman-Kodak are running on something like a 5% profit margin. And they're the biggest, most successful company currently in the business.


This is a journey, and we're all welcome to follow either as observers or as participants. Or choose not to follow. But sniping and making false allegations about Harman's finances is, IMHO, not on. By all means criticise what you see in Phoenix because it's clearly not a "normal" film and isn't suitable for every day use. It works in the specific circumstances Harman recommend. Outside of that, it's a crap shoot. But they are clear about that crap shoot. They're not even doing the Lomography spiel of coming up with some inventive hype. Harman have basically said "Here it is, here's how we think it's best used....have fun". I had fun with my first roll but am unsure what I'll do with my second. But I will shoot it, and probably have fun doing so.
 

foc

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 30, 2010
Messages
2,519
Location
Sligo, Ireland
Format
35mm

+1
Very well said.
 

Disconnekt

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2017
Messages
518
Location
Inland Empire, CA
Format
Multi Format

Yep. Plus, even though its under a different name, the last time Ilford made c41 color film was in the 1980's for a short time, and thats after they had stopped making it in the late 60's (their film chronology can be found here: https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Ilford/Chronology.html).

The fact they decided after 30+ years to try & get back into making a new color film & was able to make something usable after a year of R&D shows they're serious on making it a constantly made product if people are willing to give them a chance buying it & deal with the "growing pains" of them improving it over time.
 

Disconnekt

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2017
Messages
518
Location
Inland Empire, CA
Format
Multi Format
Plus, "if" they were scamming people, they wouldn't go through all the hassle of taking peoples feed back/surveys, interviews, spending money all of these photowalks they've been doing, and even saying they're more than open to making it in other formats (120, 4x5, 8x10) down the road, etc., they would've been "hey, here's some "new film"! peace!" with little to no commmunication afterwards.
 

pbromaghin

Subscriber
Joined
Sep 30, 2010
Messages
3,807
Location
Castle Rock, CO
Format
Multi Format
They have under 100 employees and 5 million (euros? Pounds? Dollars?) per year in sales. How can they afford this kind of project in any other way?
 

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
19,956
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm
Whether it does or not in reality doesn't matter since it's what people believe.

What I was presuming from your comment was that only the newcomers who like the "funkiness" of the Harman film will be the future buyers of colour film so current users of "normal" colour film users will die out, those former users of normal colour film will never comeback to film and Harman need to think twice about striving for improvements to Phoenix film as this may put off its new market from buying film that gets close to or even achieves Kodak quality

Overall not a great prospect for film's future is my conclusion based on what I think you had said

pentaxuser
 

Romanko

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2021
Messages
889
Location
Sydney, Australia
Format
Medium Format

We now have Bellini kits available from Decisive Moment in Melbourne. We also have a thread here on local resources:
 

DeletedAcct1

Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
869
Location
World
Format
35mm

To what I remember, Foma did produce some color films. Dunno if it was Orwo that produced it.
 

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
19,956
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm
They have under 100 employees and 5 million (euros? Pounds? Dollars?) per year in sales. How can they afford this kind of project in any other way?

I thought it had said it had almost 200 employees. Still, that's a massive reduction on what it had when Harman was established just after the Ilford bankruptcy in 2005 It's output however seems to have grown from those start-up days so it has clearly made large productivity gains

pentaxuser
 

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
19,956
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm
Did anyone say Harman is scamming us with its Phoenix film? Isn't scamming selling something that is not what you claim it to be I don't think Harman has ever made that claim. What is being said by several is that it might have been better to have waited until it was in a position to have made a film which was not "straight off the drawing board" as this one seems to be

Others may feel that the initial product does not live up to their perception of what it would be based on what they saw as the "hype" surrounding the lead up to the announcement

That's still a long way from what I understand an accusation of "scamming " to consist of

pentaxuser
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
22,870
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
They have under 100 employees and 5 million (euros? Pounds? Dollars?) per year in sales.

That can't be right. This would amount to GBP 50k revenue per employee per year. That's abysmal by any standard and they wouldn't have survived.

Their annual figures from 2022 show revenues of GBP 28.5m and a net operating profit after taxes of GBP 2.8m. The report is also explicit on staff, which was just shy of 200 (so @pentaxuser is correct above), constituting a total cost of around GBP7.5m. This seems quite consistent with average salaries in the UK, suggesting many of the staff are production personnel being paid a little less than average, and/or some of them may be working on a part-time basis.

In any case, it boils down to a much more sensible ca. GBP 140k revenue per employee per year, which seems to me quite normal for a manufacturing company this size, although you generally see somewhat higher turnovers (and profitability) at this complexity level.
 

foc

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 30, 2010
Messages
2,519
Location
Sligo, Ireland
Format
35mm
To what I remember, Foma did produce some color films. Dunno if it was Orwo that produced it.

My understanding was that Foma colour film was based on the old Agfa/Orwo colour process (like Agfacolor CNS). Foma didn't produce a C41 film.
Orwo did briefly produce their own C41 film in the early 1990s but then changed to putting their own labels on Konica/Ferrania produced film.
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…