First MF Camera: Folder or TLR

punkzter · Aug 2, 2017

I'm interested in purchasing a MF camera. Size and weight are considerations, but I have a couple of 35mm cameras that I can carry with me on hikes.

I think that I would be interested in using this for portraits and candid shots. It won't be for street photography.

I've considered the Agfa Isolette iii camera, but am a little worried about the viewfinder because I wear glasses. Can anyone speak to this concern? I have a kodak retina iiic which is borderline to use...maybe that helps as a reference?

I had a Fed 3a, which I sold, that I had to remove my glasses to use to compose the shot. Thankfully that camera had an adjustment on the viewfinder for nearsighted folk.s

I would also consider a TLR. I like the idea that the folder is more portable. But I don't want something where it will be hard to compose the image.

bdial · Aug 2, 2017

The viewfinders on many old folders are a little squinty, not as bad as a Retina, but dim and sometimes pretty small.
Some cleaning will help if you can open the top.
Weight would probably favor the TLR's, they aren't pocketable, but not truly any larger than a digi or film SLR, and they are mostly an empty box, so not a lot of weight.
Another advantage of a TLR is that you can focus optically, most MF folders don't have rangefinders, so focusing is by guesstimate. Not a problem for landscapes, but for portraits and such, especially at wide f/stops it might be a problem.

punkzter · Aug 2, 2017

The folder that I've been looking at has been cla'd (certo6). The seller told me that, with glasses, he wasn't able to see the entire "frame". I can just do that with my retina.

Paul Howell · Aug 2, 2017

Folders come in a number of formats, 6 X 4.5, 6X6, and 6X9 while the only TLR that came as 6X7 was the Konica Omegaflex (not really a TLR, a twin lens direct view) some of the Rollei's take a 6 X 4.5 insert and Yashica's 635 had an 35mm insert kit. With a TLR for the most part you need to live with a square format or crop to a rectangle for an 8X10. I have a Kodak Tourister, it is not a rangefinder, scale focus, with my glasses on I cannot the entire viewfinder. With my Yashicas D or 124 I can see all of the viewfinder with my glasses on, the pop up magnifier is a really handy. In terms of size, maybe a 645?

punkzter · Aug 2, 2017

The 6x6 format is okay with me. I like the look.

punkzter · Aug 2, 2017

Thankfully the isolette 3 has a focusing mechanism...although I have wondered how well that works in reality with moving subjects. You focus, and then transfer the distance to the lens.

ntenny · Aug 2, 2017

It sounds like your biggest concern is the viewfinder, where it's really no contest---the TLR wins in a walk. But there are TLR people and non-TLR people, and you may just need to get hold of an inexpensive TLR and shoot with it for a little to find out if the gestalt works for you.

-NT

Prest_400 · Aug 2, 2017

I would go towards TLR or even SLR, given the prices of some 645 SLRs being quite low -- if weight is a consideration, then it may be a good choice to limit Prism use; but the weight then will be superior to a TLR or Folder and IIRC simple systems are around the 1.2-1.5kg mark. There's a thread about this topic going on.

Given that you prefer Portraiture and candids, TLRs viewing system are quite good with people. It's not quite WYSIWYG as an SLR, but more approachable than VF/RF and people tend to not notice you are composing while looking down a WLF. Worth noting is that Waist level gives a lower perspective of subjects.

Edit: Adding to what Nathan mentions. The WLF inverted view very possibly will be slower than an eye level RF. Plus the boxy ergonomics are different.
Cuteness wise (aka. using charming magick to allure the subject) should be rather equal between TLRs and Folders.

punkzter · Aug 2, 2017

Well, I am concerned about the viewfinder. It's hard not to love looking into my canon 35mm slr viewfinders and seeing the whole image. Like I mentioned before, the Kodak Retina IIIc is just manageable, and if the Isolette IIIc were the same, I'd be okay with it. I'm concerned that the seller said that with glasses he could only see 70% of the image. That seems bothersome to me...but perhaps it's not so bad?

Arbitrarium · Aug 2, 2017

I agree it'd be best to have a go with a TLR before you commit. I can't get used to the flipped viewfinder image myself and find it really hard to focus them.

There are some coupled rangefinder folders you can get reasonably cheap such as the Balda Super Baldax. Much closer to the experience of using a Retina or other manual rangefinder. I'm a fan of anything that folds so my opinion is skewed. I reckon if you can manage to see through a non-big-C Retina viewfinder then most 120 folders should be fine.

I'm currently using a Voigtlander Bessa 66 (Baby Bessa) with an accessory rangefinder. I assumed the separate rangefinder would slow me down too much but it really isn't a big deal in practice.

DWThomas · Aug 2, 2017

I have a 6x6 and a 6x9 folder, a 6x6 TLR, and a 6x6 SLR in medium format film and I would lean toward the TLR (mine is a Yashica 124g) for what you are describing. The SLR (Bronica SQ-A) I consider my "most serious camera" but it can be noticeably heavier depending on what lens and viewfinder one uses, although it does offer that ability to interchange lenses, viewfinders -- and even films (backs interchange). The folders (Perkeo II and Ercona II) are nice in the way they compact to cart around, but definitely more "squinty" (love that term!) viewfinder-wise, and do not have built in rangefinders. I do in fact have an accessory shoe mountable rangefinder, but find I generally do pretty well just estimating and setting for most of my (non-portrait) shooting.

Ko.Fe. · Aug 2, 2017

With folders you are going to deal with parallax, as result your portraits will often have not the framing you were trying to achieve. TLR... closer you'll try to get same problem will appears. But at least some of TLRs have parallax correction indicator. I forgot is Rolleicord has it, it is light TLR and so is Yashica Mat 124. They are not big cameras. With those TLRs you'll get better IQ comparing to lenses from old folders, IMO.

punkzter · Aug 2, 2017

So, right now I've been looking at a Minolta Autocord as an alternative to the Agfa. But that one seems to be pretty heave.

Svenedin · Aug 2, 2017

I wear glasses (myopia and astigmatism). I've had folding MF cameras and a TLR. My TLR was a Mamiya C330. It was much too heavy to carry around and despite a bright focussing screen I often failed to achieve sharp focus. I sold that camera and I don't miss it. I still have all my folders in various MF formats 6X4.5, 6X6, 6X7. All are Zeiss Super Ikontas (coupled rangefinder) except one which is a Fujifilm GF670. The best of my Zeiss cameras is a Super Ikonta IV which also has a built in light meter. My earlier Zeiss cameras are more compact and lighter.

I don't have a problem with the rangefinders on my folders despite wearing glasses. The patches can be quite dim especially in the pre-war ones. The easiest to use is my Fuji GF670 but it is an expensive camera even second-hand. I also hike so weight is a major consideration when hiking to significant altitude.

jerrybro · Aug 2, 2017

TLR. My addiction started with a Rolleicord and it was an easy leap from 35mm SLRs. I suppose if I was an RF user I would have leaned more towards folders.

R.Gould · Aug 2, 2017

I also wear glasses, and I use both folders an Tlr's, for TLR's I find I need to take of my glasses to focus, but need them on to compose/take the shot, which is not really a problem, for folders and rangefinders in general (I use MF and 35mm) I find that I need glases on to focus, but it is helpful to remove them to compose as I can easier see into the corners of the frame, many folders have small viewfinders, If you could manage with a seperate rangefinder then perhaps one of the cameras with fold up viewfinders, such as Ensign 1620,1220 or 820, or some of the Ikonta's without rangefinders, I have a B and a 645, and these viewfinders are much better fo spec wearers, I personally would not get an agfa folder, they are very good cameras, I have bought several over the years, Issolette's super Issolettes Etc and the cameras have worked faultlessy but every one has needed new bellows, they have all had pinholes in the bellows, the only folder's I have ever had that needed new bellows, It seems to be an Agfa thing, they buillt terrific cameras but put cheap bellows, so be careful unless you know that an Agfa has had the bellows renewed
Richard

SalveSlog · Aug 2, 2017

Viewfinder: If I take negatives and print it don't matter that much.. But I mostly take slides with folders and composing is more critical. The viewfinder in some of my folders - even when I take off my glasses - seems to not show all that is put on the film. I.e. my Welta Weltax or my Agfa Isolette II.

Argenticien · Aug 2, 2017

The problem with eyeglasses and old "squinty" folders depends on specifics, including your particular eyesight problem (in my case, myopia and astigmatism), how thick and chunky your eyeglasses are (in my case, boxy frames with corrections totaling about 5 diopters), how far forward your eyeglasses sit on your nose (how far from eyes), how willing you are to mash your specs into the viewfinder window (not very, if they are expensive and the window frame is rough metal), and of course the optics of the VF/RF. I have a hell of a time with my old Bessa coupled rangefinder 6x9 folder, but little to no problem with a Super Ikonta C. You really would want to try a particular camera before buying, which admittedly limits online shopping.

I'd second the advice to dip a toe in TLRs cheaply. You can get various Yashicas, Ricoh Diacords, Meoptas, and the like for USD 100 range, or probably some crappy third tier 1950s Japanese brand one for even less. If the ergonomics and the reversed image indeed suit you, then move up to a Mamiya C330 system or Rolleiflex (if your budget permits).

--Dave

Slixtiesix · Aug 2, 2017

I don´t know how much the seller would ask for the Certo 6, but my experience is that these cameras are priced quite on the high side for what they are. Typical problem with folders is that the bellows is leaking or that the lens and film plane are not absolutely parallel. Anyway, you can get a bad deal on a TLR as well...

ac12 · Aug 2, 2017

While I like the idea of folders, the age will have most of the bellows needing to be replaced.
Both folders and TLR have parallax error when shooting close. Some, not all, TLRs have a parallax correction mechanism.

For portrait work, I would go for a TLR over a folder.
I would be more confident of my focus with the TLR.

I do not know why many of the older cameras were so difficult to use with glasses. The viewfinder is small, and you have to get your eye up close to it. And as was mentioned, if the viewfinder is metal, you better put a piece of tape over it, or your expensive glasses lens could/will get scratched

R.Gould · Aug 2, 2017

I have at least 30 MF folders, and the only ones I have ever come across with bad bellows are Agfa, for some reason they used a sort of plastic for their bellows, and they always leak, even their leather bellows must be of a cheaper design as they all seem to suffer from pinholes, I have folders from Zeiss Ikon (Ikonta),balda,Ensign and Franka, and as yet I have not had a bad bellows among the lot of them, so I would not hesitate to suggest using them, as for focus, I personally find a Folding RF camera easier to focus than a TLR, I wear glasses and have to take them off to focus my TLR's, where I can focus a RF folder with glasses on or off, As for parallax, with Rollei and Microcord you have parallex correction, which works well, as these are the only TLR's I have and use,(Rolleicord,rolleiflex and Microcord 1 1/2) I can only comment on these, with Folkders you have the error, I tend to make sure, with Portraits or close ups. that I use the middle of the viewfinder and any corrections can be made at the printing stage,
Richard

punkzter · Aug 2, 2017

I'm leaning towards the Agfa, which does have new bellows..so at least that won't be a concern.

Prest_400 · Aug 2, 2017

Svenedin said:
I still have all my folders in various MF formats 6X4.5, 6X6, 6X7. All are Zeiss Super Ikontas (coupled rangefinder) except one which is a Fujifilm GF670. The best of my Zeiss cameras is a Super Ikonta IV which also has a built in light meter. My earlier Zeiss cameras are more compact and lighter.

I wonder about the Super Ikontas, specially at 6x6. "Squinty" possibility of VF and bellows issues kept me away from them at the moment, but I think they are an interesting option. Still have to learn the notation and different types.

BTW as of Mamiya C's, some can be gotten for a real bargain but the weight and size tells why. Likewise, RB67's go for a song but I think the nickname of "boat anchor" some people have given it has something to do with that.

punkzter · Aug 2, 2017

Weight is a concern. If its can be lighter, I'd definitely be happier.

How does the minolta autocord compare?

Theo Sulphate · Aug 2, 2017

R.Gould said:
I also wear glasses, and I use both folders an Tlr's, for TLR's I find I need to take of my glasses to focus, but need them on to compose/take the shot ...

Likewise for me whenever I'm looking down at a groundglass.

Medium format TLR's and SLR's also have a pop-up magnifying glass, but I find them awkward. So, right, for me it's glasses off to focus, glasses back on to compose.

If you choose a TLR, I suggest trying it out to see how focusing and composing works for you and if you can live with it.

First MF Camera: Folder or TLR

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency