First Medium Format Purchase! Advice!!

KidA · Jul 29, 2015

Hello everyone!

So, after about a year and half of shooting 35mm I'm now ready to include (not replace with) a medium format system. I would like to know what you all would suggest to me given my specific criteria.

I typically shoot many kinds of subjects but still life, landscape, street, even some macro, etc.

I'll give you my necessities and then my bonuses:

Needs:

-Somewhat compact/lightweight (around the size of Hasselblad 500/Mamiya 645 [definitely NOT a Mamiya RB 67!!] I'm often shooting in the road or riding my bike around.
-Interchangeable backs
-6x6 or 6x4.5
-great line-up of lenses (I look much more for 'character' of lens rather than how sharp it will be, but obviously still decently sharp)
-Serviceable within finicial reason!

Wants:

-Operational without batteries
-Metering system preferably without the need of added viewfinder as I will only want to carry one and I love waist level finders (spot would be really nice)
-6x6 and 6x4.5 comparability (I hate cropping, I like compose with whatever aspect ratio in given)
-Not crazy expensive (around $3-4k CAD for entire system with 3 primes and maybe teleconverter [wide, normal, telephoto])
-Lenses with the same filter thread size, I use filters extensively.
-all black would be nice.
-I don't care for automatic anything.

As for my research, it seems that the Rollei SL66 line-up is best suited to my needs with the exception of servicing and reliability issues. Hasselblad's 500 series look grea too, but I'm looking for more options. I'm really not the type to buy and trade and experiment. I want to make one decision and hopefully stick to it.

I know I'm asking for much, but who better to ask than the apug community?!

Thanks!

Paul Howell · Jul 29, 2015

I cant think of any MF that is all mechanical with the meter built in the body.

Mamyia or Pentax 645 many lens.
Kowa Super 66 6X6 SLR has not been made since the 70s, but a very nice system.
Bronica 6X6 often called the poor man's Hasselblad

If you are willing to go more recent then a 645 rangefinder.

Then there is always the Mamyia 6.

Alan9940 · Jul 29, 2015

PDH has already provided some good advice. The only MF "box style" camera with a built-in metering system and waist level finder that I can think of right off is the Rollei SL66E; large, expensive, and not readily available on the used market. You mention the SL66 may fit your needs, but I'd strongly caution you that this camera is quite a bit larger and heavier than, say, the Hasselblad 500 series or any of the cameras PDH mentions. This doesn't seem to fit with your "shooting in the road or on a bike." For absolute lightweight carry, but with restrictions (no lens changing, meter, etc) you may wish to consider one of the folders from the 1950's era; basically medium format in your pocket! I have a few--the Agfa Isolette III being one of my favorites.

Good luck!

Best regards,
AlanH

Argenticien · Jul 29, 2015

You might at least pause to consider the Bronica EC-TL. I'll say straight off that I don't have one, but I have its older all-manual relative, the S2, and I love the old Nikkor lenses. (The EC line use the same glass.) I think the EC-TL would tick most or all of your boxes; I've thought about getting one myself. The S2 normally shot 6x6, but there were somewhat uncommon 6x4.5 backs available. I don't know about for the EC line, but you would think they did similar there.

Repairability may be the weak spot of this camera. It's hard to find repair people for even the S2. The EC-TL adds to that the further problem of finding spare electronic parts. It might be totally made a brick if any key part, especially electronic, should fail.

--Dave

See for example https://www.cameraquest.com/bronectl.htm

Dan Daniel · Jul 29, 2015

Rolleicord Va or Vb with the 6x4.5 adapter and a couple of Rollienars. No meter; I guess a Rolleiflex T would fit that.

I would not count on getting your first medium format and that being the end of the game. Sorry, but there are just too many variables in MF for that to be reasonable for most people.

Sirius Glass · Jul 29, 2015

Hasselblad 503 CX is what I use and recommend. You do not need the power winder feature. Hasselblad is a system and there is service easily available. If you stick with the CF or later lenses then all but the 40mm will use the B60 filters and one set of filters will handle all the lenses.

I have the SWC [38mm], 50mm, 80mm, 150mm and the 250mm lenses. I use the 150mm the least because I do not shoot portraits. I recommend either the 50mm, 80mm, 150mm and the 250mm lenses or the 50mm, 100mm, 150mm and the 250mm lenses. The 60mm lens is too close to the 80mm and 100mm lenses to be worth the cost and weight.

M Carter · Jul 29, 2015

I'm curious about your "no cropping" mixed with "either 645 or 6x6"… two very different aspect ratios.

I'd think you should really try for an MF system that's at least 6x6; big negs are just kinda magic on the light box if the system takes sharp pics. 645 is more convenient, but man, those big negs are something. I know many folks use 645, but for many here they also have 6x6 or 6x7 and 645 is more of a convenience thing.

Keep in mind that any decent metering prism will require batteries, too.

Sirius Glass · Jul 29, 2015

I use 6x6. Also buy extra film backs so that you can change film types mid roll.

whlogan · Jul 29, 2015

I have and vote for a Bronica GS1 for which one can have with (and I do 6x7, 6x6, and 6x4.5 backs.) Now what else could one want in a Medium format system I ask. This unit comes with the usual array of excellent array of exceptional Bronica glass and an equally mind blowing collection of other accessories for doing goodies of great amazement in photography. Not too hard to find on ebay; less easy on KEH these days.Check it out...

Logan

MattKing · Jul 29, 2015

Mamiya 645 Pro with a metering prism finder.

You will be frustrated by the waist level finder though. Waist level finders and 6x4.5 don't go well together - especially in portrait orientation.

You may be able to standardize on a single filter size, depending on the lenses you choose.

Look for the left hand grip with connector.

Alan Gales · Jul 29, 2015

The first thing you need to do is to determine which format you want. If you are going to crop all your square images to rectangles you are probably better off buying a 645 camera. If you decide you want to shoot rectangles then you might want to take a look at the Bronica GS1 6x7 that Logan is recommending. It's 6x7 but smaller than the RB that you said you didn't want.

A very good friend of mine owns the SL66. It's a fine camera but it's expensive and I don't know where to get one serviced today. If you are going to spend that kind of money I would buy a Hasselblad. I used to own a 500cm and a Blad is hard to beat for versatility.

If you go with 645 and you hate automation then look at the Bronica ETRs or ETRsi. I don't know if you can still get Bronica serviced any more but they are so cheap that you just buy another body if something goes wrong.

Budget in a good light meter that you like. You will probably want the incident reading type meter.

With most medium format cameras you buy a camera and then buy the same brand lenses for it. If you want lenses with character then buy a 4x5. You can mount lenses on it from the late 1800's until now. Try comparing Dagors, Heliars, Cookes, Commercial Ektars, Petzvals, soft focus lenses, modern sharp and contrasty lenses etc.

One more thing. The SL66 and the early Bronica S2a and EC cameras had focal plane shutters. The Bronicas had helical focussing and the SL66 had bellows focussing. This means that you can cobble old lenses to them. I know Emil Schildt tapes old lenses with character to his SL66. Emil shoots various formats with film and alternative processes.

http://500photographers.blogspot.com/2010/09/photographer-112-emil-schildt.html

film_man · Jul 29, 2015

KidA said:
I'm really not the type to buy and trade and experiment. I want to make one decision and hopefully stick to it.

I hate to disappoint but not ending up trading and experimenting is basically impossible. You will not know whether 645 or 6x6 will work for you, you will not know if the particular camera will end up being what you thought it will be and you will most definately find quirks and issues with any camera you buy some more liveable than others but in the end you will want to try something else because, hey you never know and with a few exceptions this stuff is dirt cheap nowadays!

Personally for what you'd like to shoot I'd get a RB67 for the still/macro (you don't have to carry it much then) and a Mamiya 6 for the rest. I have bought and sold Bronicas (SQB, ETRSi), Hasselblad (501CM, 500ELX, H1), Rolleis (6003) and a Mamiya (RB67). The Hasselblad was the prettiest, the Bronicas the best bang for buck, the Rollei the best handling one ever but the RB is the one that produces negatives I like the most and it is the only one I still have. I don't have a Mamiya 6 yet but that's no2 on the list (no1 is Leica M7). Knowing what I know now I would probably still buy them all and try them and given just slightly different circumstances I would probably have the Rollei or the 501CM and nothing else. Or if I had a limited budget I'd be more than happy with the Bronica SQB.

So embrace the GAS and buy buy buy!

KidA · Jul 29, 2015

Thanks for all the replies. You have all been a great help. It seems I've been quite spoiled with my OM system (long story, but the system 'chose me'). The only things I don't have in this particular system are the change of back (obvious for 35mm) and the huge lack of negative real estate (both obvious reasons for 35mm).

I have absolutely zero experience with medium format shooting, but from my limited time of using rangefinders on 35mm cameras, I've hated the fact that I don't get exactly what I see in my viewfinder. And I don't mean that just for macro shooting… For my (very exacting) style of shooting - most notable in my still lifes/lives [<--Correct punctuation please!!!] those 2-3cm differences between viewfinder and lens are crucial in my work (I've tried and tried and failed at replacing my viewfinder position to the exact lens position). Hands down, I would choose a rangefinder (for both MF and 35mm) for it's size and weight and quality of negs if it weren't for this inherent problem. I would not hesitate to carrying around two of these bodies seeing as I use multiple types of film regularly. They just don't work for me. Hopefully one day, I will be able to use a rangefinder (perhaps even TLRs) without it 'interfering' with my work.

About the cropping (6x6 to 6x4.5) I meant to say that although I do enjoy working with a square format, I don't like to compose for 645, yet having to use a 6x6 neg to attain it. (I believe the Mamiya RB67 has a back that is able to rotate and show it's movements in the viewfinder). This would help out a lot with my composition. To add to my argument, I often print square and 4:5 ratios even with my current 2:3 viewfinder. I've listed this as a part of my 'wants' due to the fact that I don't think most MF cameras have this wonderful RB67 feature I was recently introduced to. With my current format, I make due with what I have but it would be amazing to not have to 'think' about the different aspect ratios. It just takes away from my flow whilst shooting a bit.

As for all the comments regarding metering and battery use, I'm well aware of that issue, but I just want a camera that would still fire in freezing temperatures or when the batteries are dead. Sorry for not being 100% clear on that or a few other things for that matter.

Alan Gales · Jul 29, 2015

To be honest with you, I really don't understand all the worry about battery failure on this forum. I used a Contax 139 35mm camera for years and never worried about it. I just carried an extra battery with me and I never had a problem. The same with my Pentax 645Nll, Mamiya RZ67 or my digital cameras.

Sirius Glass · Jul 29, 2015

I do not like the left-right reversal of TLRs and MF SLRs. Therefore the Mamiya C330 had a Porroprism. I use a 45 degree PME on the Hasselblad. The positive is that it not only gets rid of the left-right reversal but it also provides a great light meter. On the negative side is the added weight of the PME>

Sirius Glass · Jul 29, 2015

Alan Gales said:
To be honest with you, I really don't understand all the worry about battery failure on this forum. I used a Contax 139 35mm camera for years and never worried about it. I just carried an extra battery with me and I never had a problem. The same with my Pentax 645Nll, Mamiya RZ67 or my digital cameras.

Battery corrosion
Battery types becoming obsolete and unavailable
Electronics failure
Electronic components no longer being available

Paul Howell · Jul 30, 2015

KidA said:
Thanks for all the replies. You have all been a great help. It seems I've been quite spoiled with my OM system (long story, but the system 'chose me'). The only things I don't have in this particular system are the change of back (obvious for 35mm) and the huge lack of negative real estate (both obvious reasons for 35mm).

I have absolutely zero experience with medium format shooting, but from my limited time of using rangefinders on 35mm cameras, I've hated the fact that I don't get exactly what I see in my viewfinder. And I don't mean that just for macro shooting For my (very exacting) style of shooting - most notable in my still lifes/lives [<--Correct punctuation please!!!] those 2-3cm differences between viewfinder and lens are crucial in my work (I've tried and tried and failed at replacing my viewfinder position to the exact lens position). Hands down, I would choose a rangefinder (for both MF and 35mm) for it's size and weight and quality of negs if it weren't for this inherent problem. I would not hesitate to carrying around two of these bodies seeing as I use multiple types of film regularly. They just don't work for me. Hopefully one day, I will be able to use a rangefinder (perhaps even TLRs) without it 'interfering' with my work.

About the cropping (6x6 to 6x4.5) I meant to say that although I do enjoy working with a square format, I don't like to compose for 645, yet having to use a 6x6 neg to attain it. (I believe the Mamiya RB67 has a back that is able to rotate and show it's movements in the viewfinder). This would help out a lot with my composition. To add to my argument, I often print square and 4:5 ratios even with my current 2:3 viewfinder. I've listed this as a part of my 'wants' due to the fact that I don't think most MF cameras have this wonderful RB67 feature I was recently introduced to. With my current format, I make due with what I have but it would be amazing to not have to 'think' about the different aspect ratios. It just takes away from my flow whilst shooting a bit.

As for all the comments regarding metering and battery use, I'm well aware of that issue, but I just want a camera that would still fire in freezing temperatures or when the batteries are dead. Sorry for not being 100% clear on that or a few other things for that matter.

As you have ruled out a Rollie 66 that leaves with

Hasselblad, great lens, meter is not in the body, to use a waist level finder you will to use a hand held meter, easy to get serviced and parts.
Bronica choice of older model with focal plan shutter or the later SQ with leaf shutter lens. The SQ with an adaptor can shoot 35mm, very good lens. For your needs the early model as is it not battery dependent. Last made in the late 70s or 80s repair and maintenance will be an issue.
Kowa Super 66, last Kowa 6X6 made with interchangeable backs, the Kowa 66 does not have interchangeable, only look at the Super 66. Some of the lens were designed Kilfit, Kilfit made lens for Alpa, the military, NASA, in the day Kowa lens were highly rated. I have used Hasselblad and own a Kowa kit, in everyday use Kowa lens stack up well against Zeiss. Kowa made an uncoupled meter finder, to use a wait level like the others you will need a hand held meter. Lens range from a fish eye to a 500mm with a 2x teleconverter. As with Bronica service and repair is a problem, adding to complications is the most well know repair tech is in his 80s and flaming racist.

Other option is a upgrader Kiev. Some were rebuilt in the Czech Republic, the lens get good review.

flavio81 · Jul 30, 2015

KidA,

Your needs are difficult to satisfy:

The Mamiya 645 cameras fit most of your criterias but they rely on batteries. Some of them don't have interchangeable backs.
There are nice 6x6 and 6x4.5 rangefinders but they don't have interchangeable backs.
The nearest thing to what you want is a Hasselblad. Probably some Bronicas as well, but i'm not familiar with that brand, and most depend on batteries.
There is a Kowa Six that also satisfies your criteria, the lenses are nice, but reportedly the film advance mechanism is fragile, so test before you buy.

I think you'll have to compromise on some of your criteria. Batteries can last a lot. If you really want lightness without compromising quality, i'd suggest a Rolleicord TLR.

By the way, in my opinion the Rolleiflex SL66 is the highest quality 6x6 SLR camera ever.

KidA said:
-Somewhat compact/lightweight (around the size of Hasselblad 500/Mamiya 645 [definitely NOT a Mamiya RB 67!!] I'm often shooting in the road or riding my bike around.

Years after, when you finally own a RB67 system, you will regret this decision! Well, it does satisfy most of your criteria -- does not depend on batteries, excellent lenses, interchangeable backs, SLR. And the rotating back is just great. And this camera has built-in macro capability for all lenses!!
Oh, and you can shoot 6x4.5 with the RB67, still with rotating back, so vertical shots are easier than when using a regular 6x4.5 SLR. A kit with the 50, 90 and 180 lens would give you basically two systems in one:

6x7 system with a 24, 45, and 90mm-equivalent lenses (equivalent to 35mm)
6x4.5 system with 30, 56, and 110mm-equivalent lenses.

And as you can see, both are ideal lens combinations.

agfarapid · Jul 30, 2015

My first medium format was a Mamiya 645 (1st model) with prism and w/l finder. That was over 20 years ago. Still have the camera, works perfectly and no repairs. Have since bought many lenses and accessories for the camera. Have also bought an RB, a 500c, several Fuji 645 and 6x9 cameras. Still love my first M645. Re batteries, you can by 10 of them for the camera for about 10 bucks and keep them in your bag for insurance. They're cheap and reliable. Try one.

KidA · Jul 31, 2015

The RB 67 IS basically the perfect camera other than the fact that I won't want to tag it along... It's just too large. If I were to do more and more studio work, I would most likely get one...

The SL66 is just beautiful, but servicing I keep hearing is hard to come across...

I'm leaning towards the Hasselblad. My main concern with them is the lack of quickest shutter speed of the 500 series. I MIGHT (depending on finaces) want to get a 2000/200 series and see how the battery works in the cold (so expensive tho...) Living in Canada, I feel the need to bring a battery-less body around with me as I've been stuck in very cold weather, helpless. If I feel it doesn't work out for me, I might just get a 500 series body for those moments, making sure to get compatible lenses for it.

jspillane · Jul 31, 2015

If you are hung up on the battery thing, you could also consider a focal plane Bronica SLR (Z/D, or S/S2 - similar cameras but accessories not all compatible). They have quite interesting lens line-ups (although exotic stuff doesn't turn up frequently). I've many times considered getting one for messing around with odd lenses, as there is a tilt-shift bellows that was made for them. They are smaller than RB's, but still a little bulkier than a Hasselblad.

Hasselblad's are great and battery free, but they are pricey and the lens line-up is focused on sharpness across the frame high IQ instead of strange characteristics. The Mamiya 645 line-up has a lot of crazy glass (a shift lens, leaf-shutter lenses, soft focus, a 80 f/1.9, high-quality APO telephotos...). My main MF system is a Hasselblad and I regularly look at the Mamiya 645 line-up with curiosity, since exotic Hasselblad glass is outrageously expensive (for comparison, you can get the Mamiya 645 25mm for $300-400, whereas the Hasselblad fisheye goes for north of $2k).

If you want a waist-level finder, buy a 6x6 camera or RB/RZ. They are a bit inconvenient in use if you are not shooting square or working with a rotating back.
Last (but not least) you can also get high quality, battery free operation with a Mamiya TLR. Bellows are great for close-up work, although true macro with a TLR seems like it would be slightly frustrating (I've never ventured into it).

You don't mention flash at all. I would argue that if you are not planning to use flash, there are a lot of advantages looking at focal plane shutter models (cheaper and faster lenses being the main one). Be aware that flash sync on focal plane MF cameras tends to be abysmally bad (like 1/30-1/60 of a second range).

film_man · Jul 31, 2015

KidA said:
I'm leaning towards the Hasselblad. My main concern with them is the lack of quickest shutter speed of the 500 series. I MIGHT (depending on finaces) want to get a 2000/200 series and see how the battery works in the cold (so expensive tho...)

Just make sure you can get the 2000/200 series serviced. I'm not sure but the older 2000 may be impossible/very difficult (aka $$$$) to service. Plus those thing are very expensive. Very very expensive. If you can find even one.

flavio81 · Jul 31, 2015

jspillane said:
Last (but not least) you can also get high quality, battery free operation with a Mamiya TLR. Bellows are great for close-up work, although true macro with a TLR seems like it would be slightly frustrating (I've never ventured into it).

For the mamiya TLRs there is the Paramender accesory, which helps with macro (eliminating parallax error), but a SLR is better.

flavio81 · Jul 31, 2015

KidA said:
The RB 67 IS basically the perfect camera other than the fact that I won't want to tag it along... It's just too large. If I were to do more and more studio work, I would most likely get one...

Many people use the RB67 outside the studio successfuly. It is ergonomic to handhold, and very easy to hold steady at speeds that other cameras (Pentax 6x7, Hasselblad) would give you trouble, like 1/15 and 1/8, due to the smooth mirror mechanism. I don't know how can it be called "large" when the image quality (with ISO 100 t-grain film) easily approaches what is obtained with a 4x5" view camera, at a smaller size and far quicker operation.

KidA said:
The SL66 is just beautiful, but servicing I keep hearing is hard to come across...

There is another guy in the forum who has recommended some Bronica mechanical cameras. I can bet that a camera technician would find easier to service a SL66 mechanism, than having to service the convoluted mechanism used for the Bronicas that have a split mirror. YUCK!

KidA said:
I'm leaning towards the Hasselblad. My main concern with them is the lack of quickest shutter speed of the 500 series. I MIGHT (depending on finaces) want to get a 2000/200 series and see how the battery works in the cold (so expensive tho...)

I can't remember the last time i've used a speed faster than 500... 500 is quick enough, unless you're shooting Formula 1 cars.
In any case, since it's your first time that you're into medium format: In general, 6x6 format has about 2 stops less depth of field than 35mm. That is, if you shoot f5.6 in 35mm, you need to shoot f11 in 6x6 format to get the same depth of field. For 6x7, about 3 stops.

Thus, it's rare to be able to afford shooting at speeds faster than 500, unless you're with very fast film or on very bright daylight.

KidA said:
Living in Canada, I feel the need to bring a battery-less body around with me as I've been stuck in very cold weather, helpless. If I feel it doesn't work out for me, I might just get a 500 series body for those moments, making sure to get compatible lenses for it.

The RB67 (...ahem...) was engineered to work in very cold weather and supposedly this was marketed as a plus against the Hasselblad. The pro-S is specified to work well and keep accurate speeds from -20°C to 50°C.

Alan Gales · Jul 31, 2015

About the early Bronica's. The pre S2a models had brass winding gears in them that tend to strip. I would recommend the mechanical S2a over the earlier models. S2a's and earlier models came from the factory unable to focus on infinity. The dampening material for the focussing screen has to be replaced with moleskin to achieve the proper distance. You can research on the internet how to do this. The EC models have electronically controlled shutters so they take batteries. They also have the split mirror system which is said to be reliable but if something does happen to it they are a bear to fix. The later ECtl models have a built in meter but if the meter fails the whole camera becomes a door stop.

I used to shoot EC's and I had an S2a at one time. The cameras took Nikkor, Bronica and Komura lenses. I owned the Nikkor 75mm, 135mm and 40mm. I also owned the 150mm Bronica lens. The 75mm and 40mm were tack sharp and the 40mm was a jewel with low distortion. The 135mm was a bit soft but could be nice for portraiture. The 150mm Bronica lens was a fantastic portrait lens. It was sharp but not clinically so. There was also a 200mm Nikkor that had a reputation for being really sharp. Early Bronica lenses were known for their nice bokeh. Most of the lenses today can be found dirt cheap. The 40mm however is rare so you might want to get the 50mm Nikkor.

I eventually sold all the Bronica gear because the cameras were getting so long in the tooth. We are talking about late 1960's to early 1970's here. Jimmy Koh of Koh's camera retired and I don't know anyone who repairs these cameras any more.

First Medium Format Purchase! Advice!!

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