First Medium Format choice help. (Bronica S2A, SQA or mamiya c330)

[Elmo Dean]

After a couple weeks researching for my first medium format film camera I thought I'd found my choice with the Bronica S2A:
Pros-
-waist lvl viewfinder
-I'm fond of 6X6 format.
-Detachable film backs
-Good lenses.
-Not as large as others of its format.
-Doesn't require batteries.
& tbh I like it's design.

Sadly I found out that it can be difficult to get repairs for this model. Especially if a part breaks as they are hard to come by. So now I'm hesitant to purchase one even if I purchase a late serial number model.

Other options I'm looking at are the
Bronica SQA/Sqai:
Pro:
-waist lvl view finder
-Still Square format
-Good lenses
-Detachable film backs
-Newer & less likely to break, easier to get repairs?
Con:
-more expensive body & lenses
-more plastic parts
-Needs batteries

& the
Mamiya c330
Pro-
-waist lvl viewfinder
-still square format
-decent lenses
-Doesn't need batteries
-mostly metal body
Con-
-no removable back
-older body possible wear & need repairs sooner?

Is there anything else I should be aware of with the S2A & these camera models or do people have other model suggestions. I'm trying to stick around the $720 usd range or less preferably.

I'm open to any help or suggestions.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

S2A is a brick, heavy and old, keep that in mind. But it is a funky camera (mostly in a good way) with unique set of features (like none other) and owning it is no shame. Can take as good images as any.

Bronica SQAi may give you trouble with the way batteries are installed. Not a deal breaker but it's been a well know problem. But it is far ahead of S2A in more than one ways, not least of which is much greater, and more importantly younger, selection of whichever part of system you may be needing. Price is another story, but that now is the case for pretty much all film gear.

Mamiya C330 is not comparable to above in anything but square format. It is a different shooting experience, it is not as flexible, in fact quite limited comparing to a typical SLR design. Yet, it is loved by many, myself included. Going into TLR brings on just about any other good (and mostly much lighter and smaller) camera from Minolta, Yashica, Rolleiflex (or -cord for cheaper).

And there is always ... Hasselblad

In the end it all depends on type of photography you intend to use it for and ... budget. But for a first MF camera I would not get too hung up in interchangeable backs. They have an advantage, but in the fairly limited film choice these days, it may not be all that important.

 

[eli griggs]

Hasselblad 500 series.

I have a Minolta Autocord, 'Export' model, 1958 and it's a terrific camera with only one weak spot, the OEM focusing lever.

There's plenty on that topic here and else where.

I've also had a C330 with 75mm and 150 or 180mm and l liked it too.

I have Hasselblad kit and do no believe the 500 series and lenses, etc, can be out classed in performance, handling and long term performance.

With the Hasselblad C, CM, you have a mechanical modular system, the shutters are in the lenses and the film backs allow changing at any point in a shoot.

The various viewfinders give you a good choice of options for each outing and shooting position.

You can also use Digital Backs on this kit with no more kit need but the digital back itself and these are still being upgraded today.

It may be a budget thing, but, an investment in professional kit, even if an amateur, pays off in quality that does no need to be replaced, down a much shorter road that you can see today.

IMO,
Eli

 

[Philippe-Georges]

For a beginner in medium format the Mamiya C330(F) is a very good starting point!
It's affordable, easy to find and more flexible than it looks (viewfinders, lenses). And it is so low prized that a second body, eventually a C220, can be added loaded with a different film.
The leses are good, even very good, and the focal shutter in each lens is a plus as if one lets you down, there is always a way to go on with an other lens, the same as with the Hasselblad system...
Except for the filmtransport, there are hardly any breakable parts in the body...
The built in bellows is interesting too as it allows a little closeup (portraits).

I had a C330F while studying photography, alongside a Rolleiflex, the Mamiya was larger but somewhat lighter...

 

[Deleted member 88956]

For a beginner in medium format the Mamiya C330(F) is a very good starting point!
It's affordable, easy to find and more flexible than it looks (viewfinders, lenses). And it is so low prized that a second body, eventually a C220, can be added loaded with a different film.
The leses are good, even very good, and the focal shutter in each lens is a plus as if one lets you down, there is always a way to go on with an other lens, the same as with the Hasselblad system...
Except for the filmtransport, there are hardly any breakable parts in the body...
The built in bellows is interesting too as it allows a little closeup (portraits).

I had a C330F while studying photography, alongside a Rolleiflex, the Mamiya was larger but somewhat lighter...

The "so low priced" applies to most MF cameras. Just looked up Bronica SQA kit and it is hardly higher priced than C330. One needs to remember that C330 (as most Bronicas) were poor man's go to tool for wedding photographers. Many on market now are beat up versions on what they once were. They may all be still fine to shoot with, but price relates to its condition majority of times, scrap those who think they go a bitcoin in the basement and its time to cash in on it.

C330 in great condition is not cheap at all, and hardly competitive with most others in that regard. Of course, for one who likes TLR style of shooting it still can be had at lower end of good cameras. However, for TLR first time experience I would never recommend C330 or its earlier siblings. It would be most likely Yashica Mat or a Rolleicord, go in on a cheaper end. Shoot some TLR, then see if Mamiya's sole advantage of system expansion is actually something you would want to invest in. it is a system mostly in theory as things get awkwardly big and cumbersome quick. Yes, it is a system, one and only in TLR category, just not remotely comparable to SLR style ones.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

The "so low priced" applies to most MF cameras. Just looked up Bronica SQA kit and it is hardly higher priced than C330. One needs to remember that C330 (as most Bronicas) were poor man's go to tool for wedding photographers. Many on market now are beat up versions on what they once were. They may all be still fine to shoot with, but price relates to its condition majority of times, scrap those who think they go a bitcoin in the basement and its time to cash in on it.

C330 in great condition is not cheap at all, and hardly competitive with most others in that regard. Of course, for one who likes TLR style of shooting it still can be had at lower end of good cameras. However, for TLR first time experience I would never recommend C330 or its earlier siblings. It would be most likely Yashica Mat or a Rolleicord, go in on a cheaper end. Shoot some TLR, then see if Mamiya's sole advantage of system expansion is actually something you would want to invest in. it is a system mostly in theory as things get awkwardly big and cumbersome quick. Yes, it is a system, one and only in TLR category, just not remotely comparable to SLR style ones.

I was just trying to point in one direction, based on Elmo's remark about the frequency and the cost of repairs.
SLR camera's (of any brand) are more prone to the need for repairing than (Mamiya's) TLR's.
About budget: I based my comment on the European situation, which is rather obvious in my case...
And concerning a camera's condition, there are two ways to go: the (flawless-) cosmetic condition or just a technical condition, which have an considerable influence on the prize setting...

BTW, what's wrong with "poor man's go to tool for wedding photographers", these tools helped paying for the rent, didn't they (believe me as I knew it)?

 

[Ian Grant]

I used a Mamiya C33 and a C3 for a few years auntil they were stolen, very versatile, I shot a catalogue for a jewellry compmpany which was tricky close up work,as well as some weddings and other commercial work. Great cameras obviously a newer C330 and the variants would be better, the lenses were excellent.

The S2a's are a bit old now I used one when shooting functions for a friends the CZJ wide angle was supernb as was the Kikkor 80mm, if you found one in near mint condition it might be an option but a newerSQa might be better,

These days I shoot with two Rolleiflex cameras a late Automat and a 3.5E, also a Yashicamat 124 when in Turkey, all great cameras but fixed lenses, and option if you're happy with just astandard lens,

Ian

 

[Deleted member 88956]

BTW, what's wrong with "poor man's go to tool for wedding photographers", these tools helped paying for the rent, didn't they (believe me as I knew it)?

Absolutely nothing. If you were not shooting with an H you were the poor man. Even if results were as good. It is still the way all those cameras were and are described, more like figure of speech than literal comparison.

 

[Dismayed]

Does it have to be 6x6? The 645 neg is a huge jump in quality over 35mm, and the gear is easier to carry about. The Bronica ETRS series is a good starting point, or a Mamiya 645. Bronica has leaf shutters, so far more flexible when using flash.

I've never had a problem with batteries in my Mamiya 7. They are small and light, so I keep a spare in my bag.

 

[hoffy]

As an S2a and SQAi owner, is choose the SQAi. It's a morn modern camera, when leaf shutter lenses.

But they are not without their problems... And parts are not in abundance either. Also, they are getting hard to find!

 

[Nitroplait]

Venturing into a new format does not have to be as daunting or definitive as you make it sound.
Without experience there is no way to know exactly what will tick your boxes. Compared to 35mm, medium format is an entirely different beast and you will only know your preferences if you try it out.
Think of your list at a starting point, buy whatever appeals to you in the best possible condition within your budget and see where it takes you. Sell if it was a dead end and buy something else - and enjoy the ride.
Don't overthink it, it is not that hard.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hasselblad 500 series.

I have a Minolta Autocord, 'Export' model, 1958 and it's a terrific camera with only one weak spot, the OEM focusing lever.

There's plenty on that topic here and else where.

I've also had a C330 with 75mm and 150 or 180mm and l liked it too.

I have Hasselblad kit and do no believe the 500 series and lenses, etc, can be out classed in performance, handling and long term performance.

With the Hasselblad C, CM, you have a mechanical modular system, the shutters are in the lenses and the film backs allow changing at any point in a shoot.

The various viewfinders give you a good choice of options for each outing and shooting position.

You can also use Digital Backs on this kit with no more kit need but the digital back itself and these are still being upgraded today.

It may be a budget thing, but, an investment in professional kit, even if an amateur, pays off in quality that does no need to be replaced, down a much shorter road that you can see today.

IMO,
Eli

as someone already said, they are all good and work to get great images.get what you can afford without breaking he bank. then, dive into it and become one with your camera. the most important feature of your camera are the eight inches behind the viewfinder!

 

[Philippe-Georges]

as someone already said, they are all good and work to get great images.get what you can afford without breaking he bank. then, dive into it and become one with your camera. the most important feature of your camera are the eight inches behind the viewfinder!

Precisely!

 

[mrosenlof]

I'm a long time user (39 years) of Mamiya TLRs and a short time (7 yrs) Hasselblad user. I'll comment on the Bronicas mostly in relation to my Blad experience.

TLRs are a considerably simpler design than SLRs, and the reliability of the Mamiya is very good. I've had shutters worked on, but never a body. Any competent camera repair shop (ya, getting rare) can work on those leaf shutters. I have all of the black-shutter lenses except the 250mm. I've always been super happy with the 80mm and longer. I use the wides much less often and have less to say about their performance. They're fine, but I have no idea if they're OK or stellar. I personally love the feel of the wind mechanism on the C220F, but you have to cock the lens shutter manually. The auto-cocking mechanism of the 330 adds some uneven resistance to the winding stroke.

Do the Bronicas have instant return mirrors? I would guess not for the leaf shutter models. Less certain about those with the focal plane shutter. You may or may not care. Everything I've heard about the Bronica is that their lenses are great.

Interchangeable backs have their place, and I have a few, but rarely carry more than one loaded at a time. I'm just not switching film types that often. They also add two new failure points. (1) the connection to the camera body, and (b) the darkslide slot. Most hasselblad owners have had issue (b), and I suspect I've had issue (1) problems at some time. I never found the smoking gun and have mostly put that back aside.

I have eyelevel prisms for both systems and don't use either very often.

 

[4season]

Bronica SQA/Sqai:

Assuming that this is pretty much the same as the Bronica ETR save for format, if you don't particularly care for features like AE finders and TTL flash, you could probably even buy the earliest models, and they ought to have a bit less plastic content. My impression upon tearing down ETRSi and it's lenses was of good quality, with use of electronic shutter greatly reducing the need for service. Lens shutters have just one mechanical speed: 1/500th sec. There are no mechanical slow-speed escapements to deal with (these can be $$ if they break in a Hasselblad lens, and it may be cheaper just to buy another lens).

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

The C330 is an excellent TLR. I cut my medium format teeth on one. I switched over to the RB67, mainly for its interchangeable backs, and never have to worry about parallax... It's nice having three film backs when I go out. It has no electronics, which I prefer.

 

[DMJ]

Welcome to Photrio!
I love my Bronica SQA, great lenses, small size, and the battery seems to last forever. Never had a problem with it. The only issue for me is that I think I don't really like the square format : ( Are you printing or scanning, using a lab? I mainly use the Bronica because I have a 6x6 carrier for my enlarger.

 

[narsuitus]

Here are the medium format cameras I have used over the past few decades:
Mamiya C220 TLR
Mamiya C22 TLR
Mamiya C3 TLR
Mamiya RB67 SLR
Fuji GSW690 rangefinder
Fuji GW670 rangefinder
Kodak Bullet
Diana 4x4cm
Holga 6x6cm
Ansco 6x6cm folder
Ansco 6x9cm folder
YashicaMat 6x6cm TLR

The RB67 SLR and the Mamiya TLR were the only ones with interchangeable lenses. I used 50/90/180mm lenses with the RB67. I used 55/80/180mm lenses with the Mamiya TLR. The RB67 was the only one with detachable film backs. I had three Mamiya TLR bodies that I used instead of film backs.

The RB67 was the biggest and the heaviest. The Ansco 6x6, Diana, and the Holga were the smallest and the lightest.

The RB67, the Mamiya TLR, and the YashicaMat TLR camera all had waist-level view finders. I also had eye-level pentaprism view finders for the RB67 and Mamiya TLR cameras.

None required batteries. None were perfect. My father's Kodak Bullet was the first camera I actually used. The YashicaMat TLR was the first "professional" medium format camera I actually used. The Mamiya 220 was my personal favorite medium format camera. All, except the RB67 and the Kodak Bullet, would make a good first medium format camera. The Kodak Bullet uses an obsolete 127 film instead of the 120 film that all the other cameras use. The RB67 is too big, too heavy, and too complex to use as a first camera.

 

[DWThomas]

These questions are fun to contemplate, but making actual practical choices can be less fun. I began circa 2006 by jumping into the Bronica SQ series, specifically the SQ-A which is newer than the SQ and has a few additional features. I avoided the SQ-Ai because my "research" left me feeling there were issues with the battery holder -- and because the bodies were selling for a noticeable premium over the SQ. The Original Grand Intent was simplicity -- one body, one WLF, the 80mm "normal" lens and two backs. I did this by purchasing components off ePrey and eventually some stuff from KEH. In hindsight, perhaps buying a working kit from one source might have been better, as I did have some problems in the beginning. Somehow that simplicity crumbled over the following years and I now have 50, 65, 80, 110 1:1 macro, 150 mm lenses, all PS series. Plus 90º and 45º prism finders, four backs, a speed grip, a compendium shade ...

The backs seem to be the Achilles heel of the Bronica, complex mechanical interlocks, back light seals, and darkslide light seals. I have repaired my own light seal problems. I have one back currently out with a darkslide leak which has been laying around for years, given there are three other backs on hand.

But -- along the way I picked up a 6x6 folder (Voigtländer Perkeo II) to have something "more compact" for light travel conditions. Then later I added a 6x9 folder (Ercona II with 105mm f/3.5 CarlZeiss Jena) for "occasional" use. Then circa 2010 a Yashica 124G TLR came here to live -- "just because."

Looking back over the past decade, it appears the TLR is the most frequently used. It's fairly light, the Yashinon lenses are quite respectable, and looking down into a WLF seems less threatening to bystanders. When I'm out and about with it, it seems to draw more friendly inquiries than any of my other cameras (well, maybe except for the home made 8x10 pinhole!) There are examples from all of the above in my gallery here. (And all my gear, with examples and links to more examples, can be found through my PBase galleries.)

I suggest acquiring one of the modest TLRs and getting your feet wet. As you discover what you do or don't like, the Fickle Finger of Fate may point toward a useful upgrade. And given all the stuff is used gear, you might recover most of your investment in the initial box by selling it later -- but then again, a backup is nice!

 

[Paul Howell]

I have Yashica 124s and D, in the past owned a C33 and a Konica Omega Flex, currently a Kowa SL66 and super, I think shooting a TLR is a very different experience from shooting a SLR. Although heavy my C33 was easy to shoot hand held, works well with a monopod, no mirror slap, no blackout, and the lens are very good, will resolve modern films, good contrast. Only thing I missed was depth of field preview and on occasion interchangeable backs. While Kowa is different from a Bronica 6 by 6 SLRs have much in common. Bronica is a system camera, macro lens, bellows, longer lens, a variety of finders and focusing screen. Bronica has what 16 lens from 38mm to 500mm, including 3 zooms. Unless you need or want a longer lens or a zoom think it come downs to the shooting experience.

 

[MattKing]

I like to use black and white, colour negative and colour slide film. The ability to swap backs permits doing something like this relatively easily:

 

[Elmo Dean]

Venturing into a new format does not have to be as daunting or definitive as you make it sound.
Without experience there is no way to know exactly what will tick your boxes. Compared to 35mm, medium format is an entirely different beast and you will only know your preferences if you try it out.
Think of your list at a starting point, buy whatever appeals to you in the best possible condition within your budget and see where it takes you. Sell if it was a dead end and buy something else - and enjoy the ride.
Don't overthink it, it is not that hard.

as someone already said, they are all good and work to get great images.get what you can afford without breaking he bank. then, dive into it and become one with your camera. the most important feature of your camera are the eight inches behind the viewfinder!

@MattKing yep, these preferences are just like with lenses. Some people carry around several focal lengths and swap them in the field, while others never pack any. I am firmly in the "travel light" group: everything fits into a small shoulder bag, no extra backs, no extra lenses. While I appreciate having the choice of a lens before I leave the house, this doesn't apply to film backs. I don't even carry the dark slide.

The point of my post above was to pick between a system camera and a TLR before jumping to specific models.

Thanks everyone for all the information and help, as much as I like the idea of a system camera and models like the Bronica Sq series where I can switch out parts and backs I think the quotes above have a point for me.

I tend to work better with less options (and less to carry) & especially when Im starting out I think I'll take your advice and get something simpler that appeals to me within my budget.

I don't really need Detachable film backs especially considering I'm starting out and the problems they can bring.

So I think I'll stick with a tlr for my starting camera. A different operating experience than an SLR but i think I'll enjoy it.

Probably somthing along the lines for a Yashika Mat or a Mamiya tlr if I can find a good deal.

Thanks again for all the help and viewpoints everyone

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Thanks everyone for all the information and help, as much as I like the idea of a system camera and models like the Bronica Sq series where I can switch out parts and backs I think the quotes above have a point for me.

I tend to work better with less options (and less to carry) & especially when Im starting out I think I'll take your advice and get something simpler that appeals to me within my budget.

I don't really need Detachable film backs especially considering I'm starting out and the problems they can bring.

So I think I'll stick with a tlr for my starting camera. A different operating experience than an SLR but i think I'll enjoy it.

Probably somthing along the lines for a Yashika Mat or a Mamiya tlr if I can find a good deal.

Thanks again for all the help and viewpoints everyone

Only to reinforce one of my points: if possible do put your hands on a Mamiya TLR AND another TLR before purchase. They are only similar in general optical design and pretty much different in every other way, from size, to weight, to how they feel during focusing (especially handheld) etc. Simplicity is not with Mamiya by comparison. They are great cameras but in their own league.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

I'm not home to show a size comparison with own gear, but Brennanprobst.com has a post on YM 124 G and below photo is also there (I hope posting a pic from linked blog post is part of fair use principle, if not I'll remove it). Think of most TLRs to be in YM size.

 

[MattKing]

FWIW, I've owned a Mamiya C330 since the 1970s. I've owned a Mamiya 645 Pro or Super for 15 years or so. I had nearly ten years of really good experiences with a Mamiya RB67.
I've participated in shows where my presentation prints came from all three, as well as 35mm film cameras.
They all do what they do really well. And the ranges of what they do overlap. Each one has its particular strengths, but I could do just about everything I do with each one alone. So to the OP I would say: try out something that you can relatively easily acquire (including lenses and accessories, if applicable). You will learn from the experience. The relatively robust market for this sort of camera means that if you realize you need something different, you probably won't lose a lot if you have to switch.