First attempts at C-41 are very grainy

[mabman]

http://www.pakor.com/products/TRELU...75_444-2648.cfm?CFID=4528934&CFTOKEN=59937629

The above link was posted in response to "mrred"'s comment about lack of availability of kits. For those who missed it, mrred, like myself, is in Canada. The problem is there are few, if any, distributors of liquid C-41 chems in smaller sizes for hobbyists in Canada, and I have yet to find a place that will send me a liquid kit across the US border due to hazmat regulations. You can, however, import the powder kits without issue (other than shipping costs, of course). The link above goes to a seller in Minnesota, which poses the same problem for Canadians.

I am currently attempting to get the Rollei C-41 kit via a local photo store, as they can get other Maco products via a Canadian distributor, but that isn't looking promising.

So, for smaller amounts/kits, it looks like a powdered C-41 kit may be the only option for Canadians right now, which means it will contain a blix.

This thread has been helpful with identification of possible problems with the use of blix, so thanks to all contributors.

 

[hrst]

If my processor does the standard C41 Bleach and Fix at the six minute times, will the C-41RA rapid Bleach and Fix over do? Or is this just "to completion" and the extra time won't matter?

Shouldn't matter, goes to completion.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Bleaches, Blixes and Fixes go to completion in color processes. Generally, you cannot overdo it. You can underdo it and that is the theme of this thread. In addition, if anything, the powdered blix kits are worse. Many of them use Sodium Ferric EDTA and Sodium Hypo instead of the ammonium salts. This causes more retained silver. So, check before you buy a powdered kit.

Again: The Formulary sells 1L C41 kits. Check with them.

PE

 

[thelawoffives]

This is a weird repost - After I submitted it, I thought that I had posted on the wrong thread, so I deleted it, and now I am reposting:

I want to say that I was not offended by any comments that were made, nor did I think that this thread had been co-opted by rants about the effectiveness of the product I am using. I am not terribly happy with the unicolor kit, and I plan on moving on to Kodak chemistry, once I can get my mind around all the various factors of what to buy, how long it lasts, etc. Also, I have to say that it was the calm tone of the posts I have read by Photo Engineer that made me feel comfortable enough to move from a reader to a poster and subscriber of this forum. The purpose of my post was to express my feeling, as a beginner, that the quality and archival properties of a type of chemistry are not the only factors in choosing a product. From my perspective, I am far more willing to work around the deficiencies of a product and not experience a large output of cash when I am starting out with any project. I would imagine that there are quite a few like me who learn from experiences like this.

I am sorry if it sounded like I was dismissing the concerns of the posters who dislike blix-based kits, but I am trying to write for future users who might throw up their hads and say "damned if I do, damned if I don't, I'll just let a lab do it!" I think that it benefits us all to encourage rather than discourage the use of any chemistry at home. Please consider when someone is first starting out with home development in 2010, the process is quite overwhelming, and it is likely that most information will come from forums and books, not from the experience of the many other people that a beginner knows who process their own film--those people are now few in number.

A quick apology, and then I am done, I took an opportunity to make a statement about something, and I fear that I improperly implied that hrst's comments were invective, or out of place in this thread. I really appreciate those posts, and I am sorry for framing my comments in that way.

Thanks for all the help, and I think I have a set of good guidelines for how to use up the rest of this unicolor kit while I assemble a Kodak-based process. Onward and upward!

-Bill

 

[Photo Engineer]

Thanks Bill, I try to stay cool and calm, but sometimes I fail!

Best wishes.

PE

 

[hrst]

Bill, I agree that we should make it appear as easy as possible to beginners. And, usually beginners are not so concerned about the quality but want to see some nice pictures on their films first, and are simply amazed by that alone that they got a color image, and maybe later go on to better products. But, every now and then there are picky beginners coming from digital with expectations of nonexistent graininess. Then, silver retention combined with scanning can be quite discouraging. [So, as a side note, an optical print, or a print altogether, shows usually less grain than a scanned image on a computer screen at the same size and the same viewing distance.]

Thanks for your nice words. Absolutely no offence taken, and I understand your point very well.

 

[nickandre]

First, scanned images introduce digital grain. I thought the same thing until I tried printing the negatives in an enlarger and was shocked to see the grain had vanished mysteriously leaving clean, colorful images.

Second, expired film gets grainy. Third, if you shoot indoors under flourescent lighting your images will not balance correctly. Shoot outdoors on sunny/hazy/overcast days.

 

[markbarendt]

Just to be clear, I should blix for 16.5 minutes, or for 10 minutes? And, is blixing (or bleaching and fixing in different steps) similar to fixing in b+w processes in that it is difficult to overdo it?

As to the time since it did not work at the recommended time I'd suggest about double "normal" and check the next roll.

Yes bleach and fix are meant to go to completion so extra shouldn't hurt but I don't know the "blix" chemicals personally.

Just FYI with the Trebla chemicals I use, the bleach step is "complete" in 1 minute but I normally go longer, then I rinse for 3.5 and the fix is complete in about 90 seconds I think but I give it a bit more.

The separate chemical steps are more efficient by a large margin.

 

[markbarendt]

OK, I looked at the Pakor chems, and since I really don't know what I"m doing with C41 yet, I'm still confused. The datasheet I found isn't particularly helpful other than it's for minilabs.

Is this a separate bleach/fix kit? Seems to be counting the bottles. Is this a repackaging of Fuji/Hunt chemicals? Or an equivalent from alternate sources?

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

In this thread there are links to the right data sheets.

Trebla manufactures the kit, it is not a repackage.

Pakor, and other mini-lab supply houses like Liberty and Armadillo, should be able to get you the kit.

What these kits lack is a set of directions for small batches so it takes a little figuring. The data is here on APUG somewhere.

I can dig it up if need be.

The actual capacity of that kit is about 300+ 24 exposure rolls. At home you won't get that many but even at 80 to 100 rolls it's relatively cheap.

 

[markbarendt]

The above link was posted in response to "mrred"'s comment about lack of availability of kits. For those who missed it, mrred, like myself, is in Canada. The problem is there are few, if any, distributors of liquid C-41 chems in smaller sizes for hobbyists in Canada, and I have yet to find a place that will send me a liquid kit across the US border due to hazmat regulations.

Check with some of the labs in your area, they have to buy their liquids somewhere.

Pakor is a minilab supply house not a retail place, I'll bet that there are similar supply houses somewhere in Canada.

You could also contact Pakor, Liberty, or Armadillo and see if they have a way.

 

[McFortner]

Well, I have to say that there is a lot of information in this thread to go over. I've been wanting to do C-41 at home and the whole blix/no blix has totally confused me for a while. I finally have black and white down but C-41 scared me. I think I have a better handle on it because of this thread. When my finances allow I'll start looking into kits to do at home.

Michael

 

[Photo Engineer]

Please be careful of judging that a Bleach or Blix is done in 1 minute. Generally, your eye cannot tell how quickly the bleaching action is complete. And, it varies from film to film. Faster films Bleach or Blix much more slowly than slow films in many cases.

PE

 

[Sirius Glass]

Please be careful of judging that a Bleach or Blix is done in 1 minute. Generally, your eye cannot tell how quickly the bleaching action is complete. And, it varies from film to film. Faster films Bleach or Blix much more slowly than slow films in many cases.

PE

So when one processed C-41 for the first time ever, should one automatically bleach or blix for 1.5 or 2.0 minutes?

Steve

 

[fotch]

Mark,do you use the Trebla by replenishing or one shot. I would prefer one shot and not sure it can be used that way. If it can, how would it impact the cost of using.

 

[markbarendt]

Please be careful of judging that a Bleach or Blix is done in 1 minute. Generally, your eye cannot tell how quickly the bleaching action is complete. And, it varies from film to film. Faster films Bleach or Blix much more slowly than slow films in many cases.

PE

Good info didn't know that.

The 1 minute I'm talking about is the minimum time from the manufacturer's data.

 

[markbarendt]

Mark,do you use the Trebla by replenishing or one shot. I would prefer one shot and not sure it can be used that way. If it can, how would it impact the cost of using.

I prefer to replenish and when I'm shooting enough it works sweet!

I also do one shot, it works sweet too, just not as economical.

Even in small batches replenishing is workable. If you have a two roll 500ml tank (or even a 250ml tank) and 4 or 6 rolls to do you can make up 500ml (250ml) then replenish for the extra rolls that day or next week. Just if you do it next week, do the replenishment right before you develop.

the advantage of this is that there is no adjustment needed for subsequent rolls. 3:15, 3:15, 3:15...

 

[markbarendt]

So when one processed C-41 for the first time ever, should one automatically bleach or blix for 1.5 or 2.0 minutes?

Steve

The bleach and fix times are dependent upon the chemicals in use; C-41 standard, C-41 Kodak SM, and Trebla C-41 chemicals all have different specifications.

The standard times will work in all cases, shorter times with SM and Trebla chems can be used.

First timers would be well served to stick to the standard times. JMO

 

[Photo Engineer]

So when one processed C-41 for the first time ever, should one automatically bleach or blix for 1.5 or 2.0 minutes?

Steve

Using the Kodak bleach and fix, I would use their times. They are not 1 minute or even 2. They are more like 6 or so.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

Good info didn't know that.

The 1 minute I'm talking about is the minimum time from the manufacturer's data.

One minute is too little time IMHO. This will appear to bleach but it is like saying clearing time = fixing time. Not true!!!!!

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

The bleach and fix times are dependent upon the chemicals in use; C-41 standard, C-41 Kodak SM, and Trebla C-41 chemicals all have different specifications.

The standard times will work in all cases, shorter times with SM and Trebla chems can be used.

First timers would be well served to stick to the standard times. JMO

Based on my experience, 1, 2 or even 3 minutes is too short. Bleaching takes time and Fixing takes time when you are dealing with color. Be conservative and you will not go wrong.

Remember that manufacturing "hype" is out there to sell product. All Kodak figures are based on "real" data.

PE

 

[markbarendt]

Based on my experience, 1, 2 or even 3 minutes is too short. Bleaching takes time and Fixing takes time when you are dealing with color. Be conservative and you will not go wrong.

Remember that manufacturing "hype" is out there to sell product. All Kodak figures are based on "real" data.

PE

I'm not suggesting untested/unproven times. I'm suggesting the times that Kodak & Trebla publish for specific chemicals plus some.

The Kodak SM chemical times are listed in the Kodak pdf linked below.

http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/Zmanuals/z101_02.pdf

 

[hrst]

You just need to remember that 1 minute time assumes a good aeration system for bleach. But well, rotary processor is quite good for that.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The times given are for Kodak RA C41. Make sure of that! The Bleach is not red, it is green. The Fixer is not your standard fixer!

PE