Finest Grain Film

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thuggins

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What is the finest grain B&W film currently available? I see that MACO has an orthographic film they say replaces Technical Pan. Does it require special processing?

Also, I recall someplace that would reverse process B&W film (make B&W transparencies from print film). Who does this, and what film(s) are best suited for the process?
 

nsouto

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I'll second Adox CMS 20: have scanned it at 4000 and it simply has no visible grain.

I use it with Technidol but the original developer from Adox is also good. It has a clear base and can probably be used for reversal, at least Adox seems to claim it can be.

Just got some Rollei ATP today, will try that one: they claim to be as good.
 

csb999

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Sorry in advance... this is not a particularly serious answer, but one I always enjoyed.

The sharpest film is a tripod.

:smile:
 

keithwms

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I'd guess rollei ATP and ilford pan F would be right up there.

Also, I recall someplace that would reverse process B&W film (make B&W transparencies from print film). Who does this, and what film(s) are best suited for the process?

As Nicholas just pointed out, dr5 does a fantastic job on a number of different films. Unfortunately their site is rather hard to navigate, but just look through it patiently.
 

elekm

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Rollei ATP. Easy film to handle. Uses its own developer. Scans nicely. Good film.

Dead Link Removed

The "6" on the clock:

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The traffic signal:

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Almost grainless. The traffic signal is not in focus, but look at what is largely a lack of grain.
 

surfotog

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What format? I use Rollei ATP in 120, process in PF TD-3, and can find no grain with a 22x loupe. It can also be processed as a positive through Dr5, but haven't tried it. Great film.
 

ahbrown73

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What format? I use Rollei ATP in 120, process in PF TD-3, and can find no grain with a 22x loupe. It can also be processed as a positive through Dr5, but haven't tried it. Great film.

Are you happy with TD-3? Could you share EI, time, temp, and agitation?

Thanks,
Alan
 

df cardwell

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The way we present our data usually skews the results,
and talk about 'fine grained films' is a perfect example of that.

Here is Kodak's MTF data for Tech Pan, with the TMX curve superimposed.
Note that TP in Technidol has a lower performance than TMX and D-76.
With special developers, TMX has even higher MTF, and lower grain.

When we make the same shaped negatives, possessing the quality to make excellent prints without making a science project out of it, TMX/Acros/Delta100 have finer grain and higher performance than any of the tricky microfilms.
 

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fschifano

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I don't have the numbers that Mr. Cardwell has, but I can tell you from my own anecdotal experience that TMX is one of the best performing films I've ever used. In terms of grain, it is so fine that viewing a print of any magnification from the proper distance, you can't see it. In making 8x to 10x enlargements, I find it difficult to see the grain with a grain magnifier. You can experiment all you want with re-purposed microfilms and exotic developers, but I've yet to see anything that produces consistently excellent results as well as TMX and XTOL or D-76. All that's required is to be a little more careful with exposure and development techniques to achieve negatives of very high quality. In the time when films like TMX were not made, there was a pretty good reason to wring what one could from a microfilm. There simply wasn't anything that could match the grain structure if that's what was needed. That's not necessary any more.
 

Nicholas Lindan

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Figures for grain and MTF do not tell the whole story.

Tech Pan has a 'large format' look - an 8x10 print from a 35mm looks like it was made with a 4x5 camera, an 11x14 from 35mm shows higher quality than most 120 shots.

The same can not be said for TMX, even though the grain can be just as invisible. At any size larger than a 5x7 print there is no doubt that the negative was anything but 35mm.

The performance criteria where Tech Pan excells is resolution at very low subject contrast.
 

Athiril

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is the CMS 20 finer grain than tech pan?

AFAIK nothing else in this world is even in the same league as this film (if what Adox says is true), though it is 35mm only.

According to what Adox reckons, the film (given a perfect lens) can hold a resolution/resolve down to 1.31 microns... resolution, not grain size :/

Given a perfect lens + fast enough shutter speed and/or tripod, and a perfect scanner, you'd need to scan around a real 20,000 dpi to see that, and Adox -still- reckons that much resolution is grain free on that film.

'The film achieves grain free enlargements of up to 2,5 meters diagonally. This equals mathematical about 500 Megapixels'
 
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df cardwell

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Figures for grain and MTF do not tell the whole story...At any size larger than a 5x7 print there is no doubt that the negative was anything but 35mm....

Well said, Nicholas... but our results our opposite of each others !

don
 

surfotog

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I don't have the numbers Mr Cardwell does either, and can only relate my experiences. I have never used Kodak Tech Pan, but do use both Fuji Acros and Rollei ATP in 120. While Acros is a great film, my results show the ATP to have finer grain and higher resolving power. These results are for pictorial purposes, not a science experiment. Acros clearly shows grain, albeit very fine and beautiful, under a 22x loupe, whereas the ATP shows none. I'm not saying a grain free negative should always be the goal, but if that's what the OP is looking for, in 120, ATP will provide it.
FWIW, it's my understanding that ATP is not a microfilm. Robert of Fotohuis my wish to comment on this.
 

gamincurieux

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I haven't used anything fine grain in a long long time, but I do remember Agfa APX 25 was pretty fine. As a matter of fact, I'm going to go get some and play around with it!
 

Ian Grant

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The Technical Pan, Microfilm route can produce remarkable fine grain images but at a price. There's atonal sterility and a look that many of us don't like which is what Don is referring to.

Back in the 70's some of the photographers now known as the New Topographers used Technical Pan, it was a reaction to the Ansel Adam's/Weston Fine art tradition with it's superb tonality, instead they made environmental statements using the tonal sterility of these films to make their statements.

The technical films are often devoid of edge effects and while in test situations they may be sharper when images shot on them are compared to similar images shot on conventional films they just don't stand up.

Films like AP25/APX25, Pan F, AP100/APX100 etc and more recently Tmax & Delta 100 all give far better all-round performance and particularly tonality

Ian.
 
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thuggins

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Thanks for all the great information! I really appreciate the comments regarding tonality, as that is at least as important as grain size. I probably should have given a bit more information as to what I was looking for.

I've been trying to get a "great" shot of the moon for many years. I used Provia 100, Superia Reala, VS (I know it's an odd film for imaging the moon, but it is my favorite and there are always at least a dozen rolls in the fridge), Kodak Gold, as well as T-Max 100. Needless to say, the T-Max had a completely different character and proved to be a much better medium for the subject matter.

I'll have to get an assortment of the films mentioned here and give them a try. I just got a 90mm Orion Maksutov-Cassegrain Telescope and am anxious to give it a try.
 

fschifano

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I've tried to do that myself with varying degrees of success. Turns out that you need a pretty fast film to do it well, and TMax 400 seems to have worked out the best for me. A full, or nearly full moon on a clear night comes in at around EV 13 or 14. With ISO 400 film, and with an aperture of around f/14 (that's the approximate "f" number of your "lens" if the focal length is 1250 mm with a 90 mm aperture), you'll need a shutter speed of between 1/250 to 1/125 second for a good exposure. Maybe a little over exposed at 1/125 and a little under at 1/250, but close enough unless you're being really anal about it. Even with a lens that long, the moon will only occupy a very small portion of the frame, so forget what your in-camera meter tells you. It will be unduly influenced by the expanse of black sky in the frame. And you do want to use a fast shutter for couple of reasons. First, and this is not to be overlooked, is the fact that the moon is moving across the sky more quickly that you'd think. Exposures longer than 1/60 second will show motion blur due to sidereal motion unless you have one of those mounts that can accurately track celestial objects as they move across the sky. You also need to allow for any other minor vibrations that can ruin your shot. Wind, camera induced mechanical vibrations, even passing vehicles can all induce vibrations that will show up when using a lens this long. Now if that's not bad enough, realize that because the moon will only be a small part of the frame, a high degree of enlargement will be necessary to fill a modest 8x10 print, further magnifying even the tiniest bit of motion blur and camera shake. Don't even think about slow, fine grained films. It won't work, unless of course, you have one of those fancy motorized tracking mounts. Then you might have a chance. Otherwise, go for something fast and don't worry about the grain. That's the least of the challenges you'll face. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's the way it is.
 
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T Max 100 or D100 will give you all that can be gotten from tradition film without getting into exotics.

D76 1:3 or Xtol 1:3 will make it sharp as you want with some grain. Use 4 oz deve + 12 oz water. 1:1 is more practical. Stock is pretty damn good too.

Depending, a tripod is best. It has to be a good one or it may actually hinder the photo. Use mirror lockup or prerelease with reflex cameras. Cable or electric release
 
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