Finding the "Right" Cheap SLR

[removed account4]

Pentax K1000

couldn't agree more

 

[aagiv]

That Ricoh XR-7 looks to be exactly what I was looking for, and I just bought a Sears-branded version. Typical closet-find type camera...not sure if it's 100% functional, but clean and not abused. Seemed worth gambling the cost of a couple rolls of film. If that doesn't work out, I'll probably stick with what I have for now and look at Nikon FE/FE2's in the future.

 

[Huss]

I think the Ricoh XR-7 hits all your points except I don't know if it is readily available where you are.

Here is their ad that emphasizes the viewfinder.

Looks like the photographer is using 200ASA film.

 

[Mastrianni]

I second the Nikon EM. While some think it's limiting in sync speed,(1/90), or shutter speeds, (1-1/1000), it was my second camera and lasted quite a long time. The aperture priority is spot on, and while it's solidly built, it was marketed to amateurs, making used examples quite plentiful and minty. Paired with a very inexpensive 50mm Series lens, you may find a deal with lens below $80. I agree with the poster who said the Nikon FE is better, but I haven't seen a decent one for $100 in a while. The below image is Tri-X with a Nikon EM and 50mm Series E.

 

[trythis]

If you wanna save money stick with Canon since you have lenses.
The Ae-1P has lit up aperture readings in manual but they aren't suggesting the aperture, they are indicating that your exposure is under or over. When 5.6 is lit up that means it is properly exposed...but...If you are talking about an actual AE-1 and not a "P" version, I have no idea, never used one. The A-1 is just weird in manual mode and not an easy camera to shoot manually although it is my favorite FD body. The F1, EF, FT, FTB are really big and quite heavy compared to the AE1P and A-1s.

My thought on Nikon's
If you are going this way, Grab an FE and some old NON AI glass to save the most and have the easiest time shooting with modern batteries and that super easy match needle.
Another Nikon body to consider is the FA, its like a A-1 in that it has program mode but its easier to use except that it will over ride bad exposures in some modes. The FA isnt as expensive as the FE2 because they aren't as iconic looking and have a little bit of a learning curve. (I am purposely avoiding discussing the FM,FM2 because you want an auto mode.)

If you want cheap, and versatile and small, the Nikon FG (not FG20) has many of the functions of the FA but just a slower sync and max shutter speed and no depth of field lever. I liked carrying mine around quite a bit.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

...
The Ae-1P has lit up aperture readings in manual but they aren't suggesting the aperture, they are indicating that your exposure is under or over. When 5.6 is lit up that means it is properly exposed...

For FD lenses wide open (which is usually the case), the AE-1P manual explicitly states that in Manual mode the lit aperture is the suggested aperture (pages 49-50).

On the next page they refer to 5.6 as a "correct exposure" indicator when in stopped-down mode or when using non-FD lenses.

 

[Down Under]

Five stars to #30. Nikons are tough cameras. Don't ignore the humble Nikkormat/Nikomat which are built like tanks, go on shooting forever and a day, can be used without batteries, are found in every secondhand and/or op shop and are cheap as chips. If something goes wrong with a 'mat, any camera repair shop worth going to in the first place can usually fix it in 20 minutes tops.

Anything anyone in this site can do with any film or D Nikon, I can do as well as (in fact, probably better as I'm older and have heaps more experience) with a Nikkormat of any vintage. Match an FT, FTN or FT2 with a 28mm and you will have the just about perfect street camera. Add a strap, a lens hood and a UV or yellow filter. The perfect minimalist kit. Nothing more needed!

Non-AI lenses are dirt inexpensive just now from usually the same places.

I was out on the streets of Melbourne last week, shooting Ilford HP5 with my two FT2s and 28s, and some young Asian geek with one of those plastic Nikon Dsomethingorother (I know it wasn't a D700 as I own one, but otherwise I usually ignore pixelpooters anyway) and a zoom lens probably bigger than he is, glanced at my camera and said, "so old!" Not sure if he meant me or the camera. His lovely girlfriend smiled and said, "yes, but I like the yellow lens, it's so beautiful!" Which made my day.

 

[Mastrianni]

I forgot about that camera. Very well built. Toby Deveson has done awesome work just using only that camera. And the pre AI lenses are cheap. I second the Nikkormat. (or Nikomat for the Japanese version) http://www.tobydeveson.com/

 

[fstop]

The A1 has aperture priority, what you call "shutter speed dial" is a multi function dial and becomes an aperture dial when changing to aperture priority mode. i find it better for aperture priority than my Nikkormat EL or Nikon FE.

You can't change aperture with aperture ring and check depth of field for composition with that system Canon uses. Nikon and Minolta use true AP.

 

[AgX]

"True AP" would mean actually stopping down and still have autoexposure?

The A-1 offers such mode.

 

[flavio81]

You can't change aperture with aperture ring and check depth of field for composition with that system Canon uses. Nikon and Minolta use true AP.

This does not mean the Canon A1 lacks aperture priority mode. Which is what you claim. "True aperture priority" is just a whim of yours, a fabrication, which is misleading to other APUG forum members.

And btw, before a person who read your post thinks otherwise, you can check depth of field if you want, on the A1. It is a bit slower than in other cameras, but not absent.

I shot for many years using an A-1 and had no problems with ergonomics. It is a very easy to use camera.

I have also used a Nikon FE, and Nikkormat EL, what you would call "true aperture priority" cameras, and the A1 is easier to use in that mode, because you can see the aperture value and shutter speed value easily in dim light. The Nikkormat EL does not show the aperture, and the FE has the stupid window that shows the number on the aperture ring, which is placed where ambient light seldom shines on it... Mind you, i like my Nikkormat EL a lot, but not for that reason.

And don't get me started on the LCD display of the Nikon F3. It sucks, plain and simple.

In comparison to this the LED display of the A1 is excellent and a beauty, far nicer than the LCD displays that were used on subsequent cameras.

 

[fstop]

The F-3 was THE best camera ever made by Nikon are you kidding?

 

[flavio81]

The F-3 was THE best camera ever made by Nikon are you kidding?

I've owned the F, F2 and F3 and i don't agree with your opinion. No, i'm not kidding.
The F3 has some flaws compared to the F2, particularly if you mostly use manual mode.
Perhaps you should compare them in actual usage. Or, open a thread asking if the F3 is the best camera ever made by Nikon. Be prepared, though, to see that i'm not the only one who disagees.

 

[TattyJJ]

This does not mean the Canon A1 lacks aperture priority mode. Which is what you claim. "True aperture priority" is just a whim of yours, a fabrication, which is misleading to other APUG forum members.

And btw, before a person who read your post thinks otherwise, you can check depth of field if you want, on the A1. It is a bit slower than in other cameras, but not absent.

I shot for many years using an A-1 and had no problems with ergonomics. It is a very easy to use camera.

I have to agree, although seeing as the A-1 is the only film SLR i have used, my opinion is somewhat invalid.
None the less, it being my first and only SLR i found it really easy to learn how to use. The "true" aperture priority thing i'm not seeing either. The shutter speed dial changes to select the aperture, very easy to use without looking as you can simply adjust it with one finger while looking threw the view finder where the display tells you what you have selected while simultaneously telling you how it effects the shutter speed.
How could it get any easier...?

 

[Mastrianni]

All those are fine cameras. Unless you want an adjustable diopter, a "normal" hotshoe, compatiblity with every lens from non-ai to 'G', and even AF-s, (G lenses only work in shutter priority or program, and non-ai require stop down metering, but do work), including fisheyes that recede into body, [caveat: VR lenses have no "VR"], built in film advance and rewind without the need for heavy motor drives, ( the MD-4 is almost bigger than the camera), simple configuration variants to adjust weight and speed to need. (F4, F4s, F4e), Although I haven't scientifically measured it for millisecond differences, as fast as any modern day autofocus. And with only one focus point, easier to focus and lock. (for me) Matrix metering on all lenses from AI onward. The only camera, other than the FA and F6 that will matrix meter with manual lenses.
The only bad I've heard about the camera is "viewfinder LCD bleed". Easily remedied with a replacement viewfinder. But as that has never occurred in my 2 "late model" F4's,...I wouldn't know. (s/n's 251xxxx and 255xxxx...both with flash "locking pin" hole on hotshoe) Another weird thing is it has no "leatherette" covering to ever replace. And knobs, knobs, knobs! But in the end, it's horses for courses,....and "cheap" is a very relative term.
In the end all cameras are light sealed boxes, and the best camera is the one you have with you.

Miroslav Tichy Homemade camera and work

 

[cooltouch]

Yes, the A-1 is a very good camera. And I gotta say that I'm really surprised by its robustness. For an all-electronic wonder, the A-1 has proved itself to be a very resilient tool.

The A-1 was my second 35mm camera (AE-1 was my first), and I was initially captivated by all the automation. When I bought it, it was my dream camera. But it was also the camera that caused me to take a step back from all the automation because I felt I wasn't really learning much about the art and craft of photography. It was hiding it from me with all its dazzling automation. This was 1983, and even though the A-1 had already been around for some years, it was still at the top of the technological heap, and Canon was still running TV commercials about it. Hexaphotocybernetic. Anybody remember that one?

I became dissatisfied with the A-1 for two principle reasons: I found its center-weighted metering pattern to be problematic when shooting with slides, mostly because any extraneous light source that showed up in the frame, the camera would react to, the result with the slides being severe underexposure of the subject because of the camera reacting to that extraneous light source. And I found the camera to be inconvenient to use in manual mode because the meter did not react to movement of the aperture ring. It showed suggested aperture, not actual aperture. So this meant I always had to look away from the viewfinder to select the aperture.

So, not even a year after buying the A-1, I decided to take a step backward, technologically speaking, and I bought a very clean FTb -- the "n" version, I learned later. The FTb was the camera that opened up the world of photography to me because of its easy-to-use manual exposure method. And its 12% partial metering pattern was just what I was looking for, vastly improving my number of "keeper" slides.

These days, I still own an A-1, mostly for nostalgic reasons. And I own a couple of FTbs, largely for the same reason. But of the 30-some 35mm SLRs I own, I find that when I choose one to shoot with these days, I always prefer to use one with a good manual exposure mode. I seldom use exposure automation.

 

[cooltouch]

All those are fine cameras. Unless you want an adjustable diopter, a "normal" hotshoe, compatiblity with every lens from non-ai to 'G', and even AF-s, (G lenses only work in shutter priority or program, and non-ai require stop down metering, but do work), including fisheyes that recede into body, [caveat: VR lenses have no "VR"], built in film advance and rewind without the need for heavy motor drives, ( the MD-4 is almost bigger than the camera), simple configuration variants to adjust weight and speed to need. (F4, F4s, F4e), Although I haven't scientifically measured it for millisecond differences, as fast as any modern day autofocus. And with only one focus point, easier to focus and lock.

I bought an F4 a couple years ago and I too like it for most of the reasons you've given. Except for its AF capabilities. I found that, in a fast paced environment -- in this case, an airshow -- that its AF was very frustrating to use. It would seldom lock on to the subject. It ended up being a very unrewarding experience. It was during the early 1990s that, when I watched football games, I began to notice that more and more of the photographers on the sidelines were shooting with big white lenses, and not black ones. I can't help but wonder if the F4s AF capabilities (or lack thereof) were at least partially responsible for this shift in system brands by the pros who specialized in sports photography.

Still, the F4 is a great tool and, as long as I respect its limitations, it is a joy to use. Even in manual exposure mode.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I've owned the F, F2 and F3 and i don't agree with your opinion. No, i'm not kidding.
The F3 has some flaws compared to the F2, particularly if you mostly use manual mode.
Perhaps you should compare them in actual usage. Or, open a thread asking if the F3 is the best camera ever made by Nikon. Be prepared, though, to see that i'm not the only one who disagees.

Maybe you should try an F4s? Your feelings might change. I know mine certainly did.

 

[cliveh]

173333[/ATTACH] View attachment 173334

Isn't the middle image by Julia Margaret Cameron?

 

[fstop]

I've owned the F, F2 and F3 and i don't agree with your opinion. No, i'm not kidding.
The F3 has some flaws compared to the F2, particularly if you mostly use manual mode.
Perhaps you should compare them in actual usage. Or, open a thread asking if the F3 is the best camera ever made by Nikon. Be prepared, though, to see that i'm not the only one who disagees.

I have F,F2 F3 and have had A-1 and AE-1 . I'll take fact over opinions when it comes to Nikons.
You simply can not turn the aperture ring on the A-1 and make an aperture change, you have to lower the camera and turn the shutter dial to effect a change.Minolta really has the best AP ever.

 

[TattyJJ]

you have to lower the camera and turn the shutter dial to effect a change.

No you don't, see my post above...

 

[cooltouch]

Maybe you should try an F4s? Your feelings might change. I know mine certainly did.

I own an F, two F2s, an F3 and an F4s. I can respect each for what it is, especially what it represented at the time of its introduction. I became quite fond of my F3 after using it for a while, and I'm deeply impressed by the F4's capabilities, but still, I prefer the F2 - and it doesn't matter too much which flavor of F2 it is. I just prefer mechanical cameras.

 

[flavio81]

I have F,F2 F3 and have had A-1 and AE-1 . I'll take fact over opinions when it comes to Nikons.
You simply can not turn the aperture ring on the A-1 and make an aperture change, you have to lower the camera and turn the shutter dial to effect a change.Minolta really has the best AP ever.

Well, you don't need to lower the camera to effect the change nor verify the chosen aperture. It seems you don't remember your A-1. I hate when somebody wants to pass vague recollections of a camera as "facts".

Enjoy your overrated "true aperture priority" modes. What a pointless debate, really.

 

[TattyJJ]

Well, you don't need to lower the camera to effect the change nor verify the chosen aperture. It seems you don't remember your A-1. I hate when somebody wants to pass vague recollections of a camera as "facts".

Enjoy your overrated "true aperture priority" modes. What a pointless debate, really.

My point exactly, it is very easily adjusted with a single finger while looking threw the viewfinder, where the display tells you exactly what you've selected!

 

[cooltouch]

My point exactly, it is very easily adjusted with a single finger while looking threw the viewfinder, where the display tells you exactly what you've selected!

It's probably worth noting, just for the sake of clarification, that you're describing switching the AE Mode Selector Switch back and forth from Shutter Priority to Aperture Priority.

Unless this switch is specifically mentioned, confusion may result when one reads about the discussion of this feature versus rotating the aperture ring or shutter speed dial.