Financing the Cost of Attending Workshops

chriscrawfordphoto · Jul 26, 2010

Early Riser said:
I agree with your first 3 points and am always amazed at people who just think their work will sell enough right away to make a living at it. But on point 4 I disagree. While there are galleries that will not talk to anyone, she has little to lose by contacting galleries for their advice. Some of the galleries in the larger cities might be less willing but when i took out my personal work I had little problem having NYC galleries look at my work and some even offered me representation. So you never know.....

But back specifically to the original poster, if she's in economic hard times, she needs to get a job with health benefits and not spend time or money chasing a photographic dream.

Do you live in NY or did you travel there to show your work. I suspect its easier for those who live there and can form connections with the right people. I lived in Santa Fe for a few years and out there the galleries have ZERO interest in anyone who isn't already nationally famous. I've had good luck getting into galleries in the midwest, but unfortunately very little sells from them. I sell more each year from my website than I did in 15 years combine of being represented by galleries and showing in exhibits.

Exeter2010 · Jul 26, 2010

oh geez Ian, don't go telling him he has "angst" or he's really gonna go off about "you have to have that to be a professional artist" or some such thing...those actual professional artists are really touchy about anyone talking about stuff they don't really know about.

chriscrawfordphoto · Jul 26, 2010

Exeter2010 said:
oh geez Ian, don't go telling him he has "angst" or he's really gonna go off about "you have to have that to be a professional artist" or some such thing...those actual professional artists are really touchy about anyone talking about stuff they don't really know about.

You don't have to have angst to be a professional artist, that's a load of bull. I'm happier than most of you people are. I don't have to work for a living and I have my son with me and the freedom to do what I want with my life. I'm trying to help the OP because I is hard out there for beginners. It was hard for me a decade ago and I went through a lot of hardship before I finally built up enough business that I could say I have succeeded. I think the OP needs to be honestly told the facts of what most face out there doing fine art photography to make money. If she chooses to take those risks after hearing the facts, its on her, but if she listens to the bad, untruthful, frankly unethical advice that many here are giving, and she ends up not able to eat or worse, then what will you people say? You'll come up with every excuse why your fantasyland advice wasn't responsible for her failure. As for Ian, I about fell out of my chair laughing when he suggested the OP sue me for Libel. Grow up.

Ian Grant · Jul 26, 2010

chriscrawfordphoto said:
I gave her my advice and it was the truth whether you like it or not. Nearly everyone else here who is an actual professional artist has said the same thing because, big surprise, we actually KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. I wrote what I did to help her, but a lot of people who have no clue about what we're talking about have felt the need to interject a bunch of feelgood nonsense that is NOT going to help the OP in her situation.

Just remember that only last week someone was fired for what they wrote on a website.

You've deliberately & repeatedly poured scorn on what you percieve the OP's current employment/financial position to be.

My point was and still is that at no time have you given helpful advice at all.

The renowned UK Landscape photographer Fay Godwin honed her skills on a workshop, she made a good living out of photography, with publishing deals and print sales. Later she mentored others and helped their careers along.

The people I respect posting in this thread that make money from photography have ALL given helpful advice.

Ian

apconan · Jul 26, 2010

Ian Grant said:
The renowned UK Landscape photographer Fay Godwin honed her skills on a workshop, she made a good living out of photography, with publishing deals and print sales. Later she mentored others and helped their careers along.

I haven't heard of her, so she can't be that renowned.
The actual fine-art photography community is worlds away from what APUG thinks it is. Workshops do not exist in that community. Workshops are attended by people who care about process more than actually taking photos.

Ian Grant · Jul 26, 2010

Well your rather ignorant then, try looking her up. She published quite a number of books and exhibited extensively until her death a couple of years ago.

Also remember there's not total crossover of work US to UK/EU or vice versa;

"Workshops are attended by people who care about process more than actually taking photos." Bullshit, some maybe but the ones we are talking about in this thread are probably 20-25% process & technique and 75-80% Image making and art. So get your facts right.

Ian

Tom Kershaw · Jul 26, 2010

Ian,

I've not been on a workshop but I was about to say bullshit as well. Surely there are very many different varieties of workshops not all of which will be any good or suite all potential participants. Also, the 'taking photos' comment if applied to serious photography seems to discredit the idea of the physical importance of print making and or the aesthetic considerations involved in-camera that go towards the final result. There are good and valid reasons to choose an 8x10 large format camera over a 35mm point & shoot, for example.

Tom

chriscrawfordphoto · Jul 26, 2010

Ian Grant said:
Just remember that only last week someone was fired for what they wrote on a website.

You've deliberately & repeatedly poured scorn on what you percieve the OP's current employment/financial position to be.

My point was and still is that at no time have you given helpful advice at all.

The renowned UK Landscape photographer Fay Godwin honed her skills on a workshop, she made a good living out of photography, with publishing deals and print sales. Later she mentored others and helped their careers along.

The people I respect posting in this thread that make money from photography have ALL given helpful advice.

Ian

I don't have a job, so no one can fire me. I told the OP the truth, if that's scorn, so be it. The truth is not always nice, and its unethical and repugnant to lie to someone so you can feel good.

lilmsmaggie · Jul 26, 2010

chriscrawfordphoto said:
You've forgotten several important things:

1) She's out of work and recently declared bankruptcy. She has no money to put to this.

2) Beginners NEVER sell photos in enough quantity and a high enough prices to bring in enough money to do anything with.

3) it takes YEARS to get to where you sell enough to live.

4) Galleries won't even talk to her without en exhibition record, unless she knows someone who will give her a chance.

OK - WHOA !!! - It's apparent that there are some of you who aren't really READING what I said in my original posts:

1. Don't let my Lilmsmaggie moniker fool you. I am not a "SHE" --
I'm a "HE." A very "BIG HE" at that.

2. I never said I was out of work. I said state employees were furloughed for 18 months. What that means is that we did not work three days a month. That's lost income -- not out of work.

3. I have some discretionary income, not much --but some.

4. My statement concerning 2-3 workshops was strictly illustrative - not definitive. If I can use my vacation time to attend a workshop - Great! but chances are, (1) The workshop may not meet my schedule, or (2) I won't have the funds available to take advantage of the workshop when it is scheduled to commence.

5. I'm not attempting to "live" off the proceeds of print sales. My income, despite being reduced is still sufficient to meet my financial obligations. However, I would have to budget for a workshop. I just would like to offset the cost associated with attending a workshop.

6. I belong to a local gallery. Not sure of all the details associated with showing ones work there, but I know that there is a $200-250 fee involved, but they WILL show my work.

So, If you're not sure what "he/she" said in my original post, please - go back and re-read it so you're not making assumptions - OK?

Ian Grant · Jul 26, 2010

Tom Kershaw said:
Ian,

I've not been on a workshop but I was about to say bullshit as well. Surely there are very many different varieties of workshops not all of which will be any good or suite all potential participants. Also, the 'taking photos' comment if applied to serious photography seems to discredit the idea of the physical importance of print making and or the aesthetic considerations involved in-camera that go towards the final result. There are good and valid reasons to choose an 8x10 large format camera over a 35mm point & shoot, for example.

Tom

Stoo & Delphine (UK APUP members) have just been to Inversnaid on a John Blakemore workshop, he's the man for you, a real master of the Zone Systen, Ansel Adams didn't, and the US densitometer guru's don't, get remotely close to his mastery of the medium.

I've known John over 20+ years and I'd highly recommend a workshop led by him over any photographer in any country.

You get the full experience from negative to printmaking, and he's probably one of the best printer around.

Ian

Ian Grant · Jul 26, 2010

NO THE TRUTH IS NOT ALWAYS NICE

chriscrawfordphoto said:
I don't have a job, so no one can fire me. I told the OP the truth, if that's scorn, so be it. The truth is not always nice, and its unethical and repugnant to lie to someone so you can feel good.

NO THE TRUTH IS NOT ALWAYS NICE

If you want the truth Chris, start looking at yourself & your own work first before you dish out vitriolic advice.

How well does your own work stand up ?

How well are you really doing yourself ?

How do you justify picking holes in other posters ideas and questions, based on what others can see of your work ?

Be careful some here might start telling YOU the truth IN PUBLIC about you're work. Don't think they aren't commenting already because they are amongst themselves, it's just that unlike you they don't post deliberate vitriol online about another APUG member.

I'd suggest anyone reading this thread look at Chris' work - see his links, and then judge for themselves whether he's in a position to give the harsh, spiteful, vitriolic advice and contempt he keeps giving the OP.

Ian

apconan · Jul 26, 2010

Greg Davis said:
I kind of agree with this part. This is a Dead Link Removed I often read to see what is going on in that vein. While it does not encompass the entire world of what is exhibited in galleries, it does cover many current trends. I also appreciate that it is focused on the work, not the technology.

I follow sonic sites as well. There are many other online places where you can see work in a similar vein. The blog and magazine writings of Joerg Colberg are also a good indication of current fine-art photography.
The difference isn't just in aesthetic, but in process as well. The international gallery circuit could care less about alternative processes and printing workshops.

chriscrawfordphoto · Jul 26, 2010

Ian Grant said:
NO THE TRUTH IS NOT ALWAYS NICE

If you want the truth Chris, start looking at yourself & your own work first before you dish out vitriolic advice.

How well does your own work stand up ?

How well are you really doing yourself ?

How do you justify picking holes in other posters ideas and questions, based on what others can see of your work ?

Be careful some here might start telling YOU the truth IN PUBLIC about you're work. Don't think they aren't commenting already because they are amongst themselves, it's just that unlike you they don't post deliberate vitriol online about another APUG member.

I'd suggest anyone reading this thread look at Chris' work - see his links, and then judge for themselves whether he's in a position to give the harsh, spiteful, vitriolic advice and contempt he keeps giving the OP.

Ian

If all you can do is say my work sucks, instead of refuting what I'm saying, then you've proven me right. I've already sold enough prints this week to live for the next month even if I make no other money. how are YOU doing, Ian?

Considering the number of people who email me each day from forums like APUG to tell me how beautiful my work is, and how many ask for technical help (which I freely give), I suspect that you'll not get many takers on your call to bash me. At this point, you are making a fool of yourself. Oops, now you'll sue me for libel, LOL

Ken N · Jul 26, 2010

corners, guys.

You BOTH are right. Just yelling past each other.

Ken Norton
www.zone-10.com

chriscrawfordphoto · Jul 26, 2010

lilmsmaggie said:
OK - WHOA !!! - It's apparent that there are some of you who aren't really READING what I said in my original posts:

1. Don't let my Lilmsmaggie moniker fool you. I am not a "SHE" --
I'm a "HE." A very "BIG HE" at that.

2. I never said I was out of work. I said state employees were furloughed for 18 months. What that means is that we did not work three days a month. That's lost income -- not out of work.

3. I have some discretionary income, not much --but some.

4. My statement concerning 2-3 workshops was strictly illustrative - not definitive. If I can use my vacation time to attend a workshop - Great! but chances are, (1) The workshop may not meet my schedule, or (2) I won't have the funds available to take advantage of the workshop when it is scheduled to commence.

5. I'm not attempting to "live" off the proceeds of print sales. My income, despite being reduced is still sufficient to meet my financial obligations. However, I would have to budget for a workshop. I just would like to offset the cost associated with attending a workshop.

6. I belong to a local gallery. Not sure of all the details associated with showing ones work there, but I know that there is a $200-250 fee involved, but they WILL show my work.

So, If you're not sure what "he/she" said in my original post, please - go back and re-read it so you're not making assumptions - OK?

Sorry about the misunderstanding. Where I live, Furlough means Laid Off...not working at all. I sympathize with you more than most here think. Nearly everyone I know has lost their jobs and many are losing their homes. Thats why I am saying to be careful and not spend too much money on chasing photo dreams. If you have the $$ and enjoy photography, go ahead and take some workshops or classes, but you really will have a hard time finding enough buyers to raise the money until you've shown your work a lot and built a following. I'm not saying you'll never suceed, you will if your work is good (I haven't seen any so I'm not making a judgement) and you're willing to work hard and be able to wait a few yrs for it all to pay off. Some of these guys are living in fantasyland, which is fine if you're wealthy or your a doctor or lawyer playing photographer for fun, but for a middle class person like you and I, you have to be more hardheaded and realistic.

Ian Grant · Jul 26, 2010

Hris Crawfird - My work sucks,

chriscrawfordphoto said:
If all you can do is say my work sucks, instead of refuting what I'm saying, then you've proven me right. I've already sold enough prints this week to live for the next month even if I make no other money. how are YOU doing, Ian?

Considering the number of people who email me each day from forums like APUG to tell me how beautiful my work is, and how many ask for technical help (which I freely give), I suspect that you'll not get many takers on your call to bash me. At this point, you are making a fool of yourself. Oops, now you'll sue me for libel, LOL

In your dreams maybe

I and many others have refuted what you were saying, myself Bob Carnie, Ralph Lambrecht and many others have all given the OP helpful advice based in some cases nearly 40 years working in photography at different levels. Despite this you keep having a go at the OP.

I have made NO comments at all about your work, I don't need to. So please don't assume I think your work sucks.

Those are your own words about your work, it's not terminology I'd ever use, so maybe you have personal issue with your own work, that's not part of this discussion.

Just back off attacking the OP's quite reasonable questions.

Ian

Ian Grant · Jul 26, 2010

Ken N said:
corners, guys.

You BOTH are right. Just yelling past each other.

Ken Norton
www.zone-10.com

He's kissed & made up to the OP now, and maybe will go do some thinking about why he attacked the OP with such vitriol without reading the OP's posts properly.

I was just whiling away time writing DVDS of the commercial work I shot over the weekend

Ian

frednewman · Jul 26, 2010

Hi lilmsmaggie -

I agree with what RalphLambrecht said. I started teaching BTZS (Beyond the Zone System) and Introduction to the View Camera workshops with Phil Davis back in 1995. The students were all serious photographers who wanted to improve their craft. They were from all different professions and photography was their passion. I now do mostly private workshops and most photographers come to my workshops because they are not happy with the quality negatives. My first private workshop happened when I got a call asking when the next BTZS workshop was and it was a few months away. The photographers was not happy with the quality of her negatives and she said I can't wait that long and she came out a few weeks later. Basically as Oliver Gagliani said about his workshops is that he could share his knowledge gained by trial and error over many years with his students to speed up their learning.

I find that learning BTZS can be a bit hard but some students do well when shown step 1, step 2 and the rest of the steps and then they understand what you are trying to teach. I saw that early on working with Phil Davis and the reward was when you saw the student start to understand what you were teaching - that was the reward for the teacher. I'm with Oliver Gagliani - it is very gratifying to be able to share your knowledge with your students.

Fred Newman

chriscrawfordphoto · Jul 26, 2010

Ian Grant said:
He's kissed & made up to the OP now, and maybe will go do some thinking about why he attacked the OP with such vitriol without reading the OP's posts properly.

I was just whiling away time writing DVDS of the commercial work I shot over the weekend

Ian

Your a lying dishonorable ass. I never attacked the OP, I told him what I thought he should do, and I stick to that. As for your other lying post about attacking my work, you certainly did and anyone who has any intelligence and honesty knows it.

keithwms · Jul 26, 2010

Why all these pages of back and forth when the answer is clear: if you want tips on how to sell prints then why not simply look for a workshop including that topic. No? If it doesn't exist then try to arrange it.

The whole point of a workshop is that it has a program and reliable experts contributing to that program. If that program includes a discussion of how to move prints, well then sure you can hope to recoup losses through what you learn.

But... most workshops of which I am aware are about process, not marketing. Marketing would be really hard to cover: the marketability of people's output, their price points, their overhead expenses and their proximity to art investors are all so wildly different. There is also that central issue that no one wants to talk about: their actual profit. Everyone is happy to talk about the $500 print that sold last year, but what about the multitude of other prints that cost way more than $500 to make and sit on the shelf. How many people at a workshop would actually disclose all their gains and losses and do the math? Not many. It's an uncomfortable topic for most people. Good luck finding guidance on that!

Exeter2010 · Jul 26, 2010

Well this, if not interesting, then at least entertaining string seems sure to be IXnay'd by the ostensible APUG moderators before too long, what with all the crapshooting and all.

Before it does, and for what it's worth, I think Mr. Grant, by degrees, was attempting to get Mr. Crawford to consider the possibility that some of his "advice" to the OP could easily have been misconstrued as not much more than a series of negative, condescending remarks about whatever anyone who ISN'T a "Professional Fine Art Photographer" had to say on the idea of getting some recognition and possibly some remuneration for one's hard work.

Since Mr. Crawford, who is apparently unable to tolerate any sort of criticism himself (since he has, after all, already attained the status of PFFA and is therefore beyond reproach - kinda like tenure) and since Mr. Grant was unable to get his point, or more aptly his admonition, across to Mr. Crawford to TONE IT DOWN A LITTLE and subsequently calling him to the carpet (for which I can hardly blame him) to put his money where is mouth is, this string, or at least this component of it, has degenerated into not much more than a schoolyard name calling contest; not to mention inciting my own propensity to engage in run-on sentences and soap-box opining about the entire state of things as they have become in this formerly somewhat civil and engaging discussion.

I'm going to my darkroom now to catch up on some work....

Bob Carnie · Jul 26, 2010

I miss Jorge and Blansky

Curt · Jul 26, 2010

lilmsmaggie said:
I'm new to LF photography but already, I can see my potential in selling quality prints as a way to gain more experience and cover the cost of attending a workshop. Let's face it - workshops are very expensive. If I could sell a print or two, to pay for a workshop, it would be more than worth it to me.

I just finished a 1-week workshop that was inexpensive compared to the costs of a lot of workshops being offered and it was well worth the money I spent. If one attends one or two workshops a year, the cost of the workshop, plus travel expenses, hotel accommodations, and food quickly add up. One could easily spend $1500 or more on a single workshop not including travel, food and lodging. And in my case, the cost of a rental car.

So if you've spent $1500 to gain the knowledge to produce a fine print - where's the breaking even point for selling the artistic byproduct (print, etc.)?

Knowing ones potential market and pricing accordingly, really means knowing your potential target clientèle. I think it is just as easy to under-price one's work as it is to over-price it. Undercutting yourself is not a good idea, so how do you find a balance between the time and work you put into making a print, and offsetting those cost in the selling price? How much is your time worth? Your creativity? I think the materials cost is much easier to figure out.

Also, at this stage in my photographic development, I wouldn't want to spend a lot of time in the traditional darkroom. I think scanning film negs and making prints from digital negs would be my best option. I'm way ahead of the curve in setting up a digital darkroom versus a traditional darkroom.

So my question is this: How does one promote themselves in such a way, as to finance attending 2 maybe 3 workshops a year?

There is site called Hybridphoto that can fulfill that best option of making prints from digital negs since you are way ahead of the curve in setting up a digital darkroom.

SuzanneR · Jul 26, 2010

The tone of this thread wasn't great from the start, and has clearly gotten worse. I think the OP has plenty of responses, so in the interest of keeping things cordial, I think it's time to move on. A round of drinks on me.

Financing the Cost of Attending Workshops

chriscrawfordphoto

Exeter2010

chriscrawfordphoto

Ian Grant

apconan

Ian Grant

Tom Kershaw

chriscrawfordphoto

lilmsmaggie

Ian Grant

Ian Grant

apconan

chriscrawfordphoto

Ken N

chriscrawfordphoto

Ian Grant

Ian Grant

frednewman

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chriscrawfordphoto

keithwms

Exeter2010

Bob Carnie

Curt

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Financing the Cost of Attending Workshops

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