Financing the Cost of Attending Workshops

Perhaps you have a place in your area like The Light Factory in Charlotte. Membership, classes, darkroom use, etc. are a tremendous bargain. They have a monthly event called Sunday Afternoon Salon which would be perfect for anyone interested in photography. The staff is very knowledgable and friendly. I love The Light Factory and am suggesting you try to find something similar locally.
I also know that what you choose to do is totally your business.

lilmsmaggie said:

I really don't understand the degree of negativity from professionals artists, especially those responses from those who themselves give workshops.

I don't have a formal education in photography. My education and profession is in IT. Moreover, I'm employed with the State of California. For anyone who has been following the news, you know that California State employees were (1) furloughed for 18 months, and (2) and are now being threatened with making Federal minimum wage of $7.25/hr. As far as I'm concerned, Arnold Schwarzenegger is a pompous jerk who should have stuck with making lousy movies with very little dialog from him. In my situation, this little political game GAS played with us employees cost me $1K a month in lost wages for 18 months, and I had to declare bankruptcy. There are state employees that make far less than I do and fared less. Some loss their homes.

Maybe I am naive, but I just spent a week with an APUG member who was not only a wonderful person, but a gifted and well respected photographer.

The money I spent was well worth the time and effort I put into it. And if he offers me the opportunity to do so again, I would gladly jump at the opportunity to learn from him again.

I may be naive but I didn't just get off the boat. I didn't just take the first workshop I happened to see advertised. I considered my options. I've attended college classes in photography; crowded darkrooms, ill-equipped labs, very little personal attention to students. It's a toss of the dice. You may get an excellent instructor who loves to teach, --then maybe not.

Good way to get frustrated in my opinion. But for many, it is the only option other than learning on ones own and being self-taught.

I'm not trying to bait anyone. I think I can subsidize the cost of attending a well put together workshop that doesn't broadcast itself as a rip-off. Oh yeah, many of them do just that: "Hey look at me! I'm rich and famous, and I cater to the rich and famous and those that don't know any better. Come spend a day or a week with me!" And by the way, you're on your own when it comes to lodging accommodations and food and you pick up the tab for travel as well.

In any case, I thought this was a presentation and marketing thread. I had hoped to get some good advice from "professional artists," not participate in a flaming contest.

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With all due respect and with the expanded background and living situation you have posted here, all I want to do is tell you that there are priorities in life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Maslow

Look a the chart and you will see the pyramid of the hierarchy of needs. Notice what's on the bottom then notice what's on the top. That's what I'm saying without calling it tough love.

What I hear you saying is: I don't have the skills to be a professional photographer. I met someone who is and would like to be like this person. I attended photography classes and and had bad experiences there. You would rather go it alone than be in a group without direct instruction focused toward your needs. You think you have a plan but the money spent must be on a guaranteed experience. You might me envious of those who are successful. You resent having to pay for expenses even though it is a part of the workshop logistics. You came here looking for advise from professional artists. You may, that's may believe it's all presentation and marketing.

My advice, take it or leave it is: We welcome you here to discuss part or all of you life. There is the Lounge for the Arnold comments and California, we do see the news and know what dire conditions exist in California. Many people are being hurt and hurt bad, it's a near Depression in some parts of this country right now. If you are the one who has no shelter and nothing to eat and no heath care then it's a Depression for you.

You are not alone, not that it helps to say so, honestly millions are sitting down to next to nothing to eat and the prospects of losing their shelter, they are trying to figure out what happened, what to do and what it will be like when and if things do get better.

The United States is a hard country to be poor in. We are based on money, money, money. You must think of how you will live on a day to day basis, even if that means moving to a state where the employment is better. Running away is not the term I would use, I would say you need to seek better employment and a better chance for a future.

Too many people work for the government in California, it over staffed and crowded with workers even though as an economy it ranks up there with nations. There are other problems with the states policies but that's another story, or many other stories. The bottom line is, if you can't make a living there then you must move to a place where you can. Maybe you will return at a later date in a better position.

Your frustration is evident by the comments about a mentor and remarks about paying for what most of us consider a part of the package in workshops. I for one decide to split a room with someone who I met and like very much on the next workshop. I haven't done that before but why spend if you can share expenses. There is no loss of pride in that, it's good economical sense. I may even buy a lunch at a grocery store so I don't have to eat an extra meal out. It's smart to watch the pocket book.

I'm not sure that you understand that most of the members here are not "Professional Photographer" who earn a living solely from selling their work. A hands up or down from the member would be needed here.

If you believe that advertising and marketing is the ticket then consider instruction in business classes if you are lacking. Photography is a business if you are to pursue it professionally. To consider otherwise is fantasy. There is a spectrum of individuals here from beginner to professional. Many who consider themselves amateurs often have a higher knowledge than "professionals". They have never stopped learning and have acquired a high degree of proficiency.

Don't think badly of those who's comments you read here you don't agree with. Even though we understand the strain you are under you have to know that the ability to accept criticism is paramount, especially in Art. It is a part of the process.

The best of luck,
Curt

Splenetic rants aside, workshops can be little more than celebrity worship and/or CV building in any field. In photography, as elsewhere, there's motivational/aspirational spew and then hardcore, hands-on sessions where, without considerable experience/know-how, you're clueless, embarrassed, and out a large chunk of change. It's a self-selection process for either experience and both types of workshop satisfy a need.

Speaking as a non-professional, non-rich person who loves photography and loves learning, I love taking workshops. I don't take 2-3 a year, more like 1 every couple of years. The couple of days working with Tim Rudman was worth 10x the price I paid.

However, as has been mentioned by others, I get so much out of meeting other APUGers. There's not a huge contingent around my area, unfortunately. I went to the APUG conference inToronto, I went to the Wyoming gathering a few years ago (which turned out to be 4 of us...), I went to Colorado initially to go to the big photography conference that turned into nothing (met some great guys while out there, though) a couple of years ago and I went to Photostock last year. At each one of them I got to photograph areas I've never been to before, I got to meet other photographers with very different backgrounds from all over the world, I've learned an incredible amount from the people I've met and most importantly, I've formed friendships with people whom I never would have met if it weren't for the various gatherings put together by various APUG members.

Per Volquartz has a gathering every year (I believe) in Joshua Tree, that's not too for you is it? I have wanted to go that but just haven't made it out there yet.

I guess this is all just a long-winded way of saying, go to the workshops if you want, but also realize that you can gain a tremendous amount of knowledge and gain some new friends by attending the various gatherings

I am interested in lifelong learning. I learn a lot by myself, and there are some things I'd prefer to learn workshop style.

We forum readers spend a lot of money on photo stuff, and that is even is even more critical for the non-rich workshop aspiring creative people. We can easily waste serious money far exceeding the cost of a workshop trying to learn a new system, buy the wrong gear for a task, waste months or years going about something in a less than optimal ways. In such cases, it might be better to find a quality workshop on the topic, spend some money, and get fast tracked to what you are trying to learn or improve. Meeting new people and the social opportunities are a result of the eager attitudes of learning and sharing and teamwork that melt together rather than the reason for going. If you want to meet new people, I'm sure there are ways to do that without leaving town.

I'm sure there are some workshops not worth the money. I'm sure there are many people who attend workshops ill matched to their needs. And there are workshops that meet and exceed certain learning needs.

For travel oriented workshops; so what if they attract or are for rich folk? If someone is able to travel the world anyways, why not spend it with people who are photography oriented instead of being the guy/gal holding everyone up because of your photography obsession? There are cheap ways of attaining the same result, but the legwork and research is too time consuming for many people who are more able to come up with spare cash than spare time.

Gatherings I'm sure are great options too for meeting some needs.

Curt said:

With all due respect and with the expanded background and living situation you have posted here, all I want to do is tell you that there are priorities in life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Maslow

Not sure where you're going with this but anyone that has studied human behavior or Cultural Anthropology knows about Abraham Maslow's chart.

I didn't bother looking at the chart. I've seen it several times.
I'm 61 yrs old. I didn't get here by not having priorities in life.

What I hear you saying is: I don't have the skills to be a professional photographer. I met someone who is and would like to be like this person.

Way off base here. Too many assumptions and guesses.

I attended photography classes and and had bad experiences there. You would rather go it alone than be in a group without direct instruction focused toward your needs. You think you have a plan but the money spent must be on a guaranteed experience.

There are no guarantees in life and nothing is free.

You might me envious of those who are successful. You resent having to pay for expenses even though it is a part of the workshop logistics. You came here looking for advise from professional artists. You may, that's may believe it's all presentation and marketing.

I'm not going to dignify the above/below comments with a response.

My advice, take it or leave it is: We welcome you here to discuss part or all of you life. There is the Lounge for the Arnold comments and California, we do see the news and know what dire conditions exist in California. Many people are being hurt and hurt bad, it's a near Depression in some parts of this country right now. If you are the one who has no shelter and nothing to eat and no heath care then it's a Depression for you.

You are not alone, not that it helps to say so, honestly millions are sitting down to next to nothing to eat and the prospects of losing their shelter, they are trying to figure out what happened, what to do and what it will be like when and if things do get better.

The United States is a hard country to be poor in. We are based on money, money, money. You must think of how you will live on a day to day basis, even if that means moving to a state where the employment is better. Running away is not the term I would use, I would say you need to seek better employment and a better chance for a future.

Too many people work for the government in California, it over staffed and crowded with workers even though as an economy it ranks up there with nations.

This is a comment made by someone that is obviously misinformed. Maybe if you took the time to do better research, based on California's population, California government employees rank among the lowest per capita of most states.


There are other problems with the states policies but that's another story, or many other stories.

"Yep - its called special interest groups and lousy politicians"


The bottom line is, if you can't make a living there then you must move to a place where you can. Maybe you will return at a later date in a better position.

You ever try getting another job with comparable pay at 61?

Your frustration is evident by the comments about a mentor and remarks about paying for what most of us consider a part of the package in workshops.

The only frustration I have would be with these types of comments. There's an old adage: "If you have nothing good to say, then don't say anything."

I for one decide to split a room with someone who I met and like very much on the next workshop. I haven't done that before but why spend if you can share expenses. There is no loss of pride in that, it's good economical sense. I may even buy a lunch at a grocery store so I don't have to eat an extra meal out. It's smart to watch the pocket book.

Good for you.

I'm not sure that you understand that most of the members here are not "Professional Photographer" who earn a living solely from selling their work.

Gee -- No kidding!

A hands up or down from the member would be needed here.

If you believe that advertising and marketing is the ticket then consider instruction in business classes if you are lacking. Photography is a business if you are to pursue it professionally. To consider otherwise is fantasy.

Do tell! :munch:

There is a spectrum of individuals here from beginner to professional. Many who consider themselves amateurs often have a higher knowledge than "professionals". They have never stopped learning and have acquired a high degree of proficiency.

Don't think badly of those who's comments you read here you don't agree with. Even though we understand the strain you are under you have to know that the ability to accept criticism is paramount, especially in Art. It is a part of the process.

The best of luck,
Curt

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"Well, Curt, I'm really gonna give you a break on this one. But one word of advice. Keep your day job. Psychoanalysis and Behavioral Psychology are not your forte."

How do you know Curt isn't a Psychiatrist? Lots of doctors are into photography. Anyway, what he told you is largely true. Priorities. Photography should be near the bottom for someone who lost her job and declared bankruptcy. Hell, I'm a fulltime professional, and its still not MY #1 priority in life (My son is; I have custody of him and he has no one else in the world to care for him...photography is a distant second to him). I suspect you have a lot more things in your life that ought to take priority over photography.

chriscrawfordphoto said:

How do you know Curt isn't a Psychiatrist? Lots of doctors are into photography.

"Based on Curt's responses, I wouldn't make that assumption."

Anyway, what he told you is largely true. Priorities. Photography should be near the bottom for someone who lost her job and declared bankruptcy.

I'm not a her -- and I don't recall saying that I lost my job. Are those assumptions you're making? :confused:

Hell, I'm a fulltime professional, and its still not MY #1 priority in life (My son is; I have custody of him and he has no one else in the world to care for him...photography is a distant second to him).

I suspect you have a lot more things in your life that ought to take priority over photography.

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My priorities are my mortgage, my cat and me. Period.

chriscrawfordphoto said:

The problem is, no one is going to buy your prints and pay you the kind of money that you'd need to finance a workshop selling one or two prints unless you're already well known as an artist. In that case, you don't need to attend a workshop, you'd be qualified to teach it. Workshops are playtime for rich amatuers and a way for professionals to fleece the rich. Professional fine art photographers (that is to say, those who sell prints regularly) don't go to workshops. They're either self taught, or they went to art school or a university art program and got a fine arts degree.

How do I know? I'm a full time professional artist. I earn 100% of my living selling my prints, licensing my photos, and occasionally doing commercial work. I learned the basic technical stuff while earning my art degree at Indiana University and taught myself by practice everything else. Workshops are overpriced and basically involve paying to spend time in the presence of someone famous so you can brag to our friends about it.

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I have to take issue with several things you've said. First your statement that workshops are for "rich amateurs and a way for professionals to fleece the rich" is not only insulting but just plain wrong. While one needs some discretionary income to take a workshop, and many of those that do have those resources, there are also simply people who are considering a long term career in photography, as well as people such as myself long time professional photographers who want to learn or experience a new technique.
After more than 30 years as professional I took a workshop at ICP on making mural sized prints. And most of the people in my class were art school students or art post graduates also looking to learn a new method.

And as for professionals looking to fleece people, the people that I know who give workshops, they are REAL full time professional photographers, are experts in their areas and do their best to pass on those hard earned skills to others in an enjoyable and enlightened way. They are serious about their obligation to their students and are not looking to "fleece" anyone. The unfortunate reality is that with the mass amateurization of photography there are others out there giving workshops who are NOT qualified by either training or experience, are not true professionals, and do not actually impart any real or valuable knowledge to their students. As with anything let the buyer beware.

And your further generalization that all professional fine art photographers are "either self taught, or they went to art school or a university art program and got a fine arts degree". Is also inaccurate as many also assisted well established photographers and learned that way as well. In my case it was college and assisting, and among my peers that was a common route and few of us would argue that we learned more in school than by assisting.

And lastly your quote of, "Workshops are overpriced and basically involve paying to spend time in the presence of someone famous so you can brag to our friends about it." Maybe that would be your motivation behind taking a workshop, but from my experience those that take workshops want to actually LEARN something.

apconan said:

nope, chris is right. i'm sure it came out exactly as he intended.
if you didn't take photo in college, there are limitless ways to learn a variety of techniques. any self-respecting teaching program doesn't call themselves a 'workshop', because workshops have now become synonymous with scam. "Pay me $5000 to accompany me to Iceland! Does not include airfare, accommodation, or expenses! In fact, includes absolutely nothing!"

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Workshop is NOT synonymous with "scam". Call it a class, call it a school, call it a workshop, the name of the learning session does not matter. What matters is the caliber of the person teaching that class. Where it can be a scam is when someone with minimal photographic knowledge feels they are qualified to teach others for a fee, THAT is a scam.

And as for photo trips to Iceland, etc. Many of the people looking to take workshops or classes do so on their vacation time which is limited. Those same people often like to travel and like to travel to photo rich environments. And just how is it wrong for a qualified professional photographer to offer classes or workshops that meet the combined needs of those people? Bill Schwab, an APUG regular and professional photographer offers workshops in Iceland and from what I've heard from those who have attended they felt it was well worth it. As for the cost, people charge what they need to make it economically viable for them to give the workshop and the market will determine of their pricing is reasonable. To generalize it as a "Scam" on your part is judgmental and just wrong.

marcmarc said:

Chris Crawford stated it perfectly. I also feel the same way about portfolio reviews. These are where one pays big $$ to have a photographer from a prestigious photo agency or a curator from a art museum look a sample of your work and then give you their opinion. While I'm not a pro, I'm very happy with how my work is growing and expanding with lots of trial and error experience along with a couple of great teachers at local city colleges where I took a couple of classes.

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I have to agree with you about portfolio reviews. While there are those that employ truly qualified people to give those reviews, many use people who are desperately in need of a a good portfolio review themselves. I can not begin to tell you how many times I've received the same solicitations for portfolio reviews that many of you get only to see that the reviewers are at best mediocre photographers and non professionals. I think if you're a lousy photographer, you are the LAST person who should be giving image related advice.

When I started out in photography there weren't "reviews" as a mass marketing tool. You simply called photographers or artists or curators who you respected and asked if they had time to see your work and give you advice. You'd be amazed at who I got to see my work and give me lasting and valuable feedback from. And it was free. So my advice, call or write an artist you truly respect and ask them for a review.

CGW said:

Splenetic rants aside, workshops can be little more than celebrity worship and/or CV building in any field. In photography, as elsewhere, there's motivational/aspirational spew and then hardcore, hands-on sessions where, without considerable experience/know-how, you're clueless, embarrassed, and out a large chunk of change. It's a self-selection process for either experience and both types of workshop satisfy a need.

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I think you're wrong. In all my years as a pro, NO ONE in a position to hire me or give me assignments cared about my CV, they ALL wanted to see my portfolio. Photography is one of the few fields where in less than 5 minutes you can actually see if the person knows what they're talking about. All you have to do is look at their work. And in picking someone to learn from, look at their work too.

Greg Davis said:

The only time I am asked for a CV is when I apply for a teaching position, but that is because it is the standard for academic resumes.

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Greg teaching is a whole different thing in accredited institutions. There a CV is a must, but for assignment work and work shops it's all about the skill level and that is evident ion a portfolio. And even with formal schools if you are a noted artist or an established master you'll get teaching offers regardless of your CV.

All I want to say on the subject is that many of us would be better photographers if we spent more money on attending workshops and less on filling our homes with cameras.and lenses.

Make it a priority

lilmsmaggie said:

I'm new to LF photography but already, I can see my potential in selling quality prints as a way to gain more experience and cover the cost of attending a workshop. Let's face it - workshops are very expensive. If I could sell a print or two, to pay for a workshop, it would be more than worth it to me.

I just finished a 1-week workshop that was inexpensive compared to the costs of a lot of workshops being offered and it was well worth the money I spent. If one attends one or two workshops a year, the cost of the workshop, plus travel expenses, hotel accommodations, and food quickly add up. One could easily spend $1500 or more on a single workshop not including travel, food and lodging. And in my case, the cost of a rental car.

So if you've spent $1500 to gain the knowledge to produce a fine print - where's the breaking even point for selling the artistic byproduct (print, etc.)?

Knowing ones potential market and pricing accordingly, really means knowing your potential target clientèle. I think it is just as easy to under-price one's work as it is to over-price it. Undercutting yourself is not a good idea, so how do you find a balance between the time and work you put into making a print, and offsetting those cost in the selling price? How much is your time worth? Your creativity? I think the materials cost is much easier to figure out.

Also, at this stage in my photographic development, I wouldn't want to spend a lot of time in the traditional darkroom. I think scanning film negs and making prints from digital negs would be my best option. I'm way ahead of the curve in setting up a digital darkroom versus a traditional darkroom.

So my question is this: How does one promote themselves in such a way, as to finance attending 2 maybe 3 workshops a year?

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I think you have to make it a priority. It would be great to finance your workshops by selling prints. It's hard to get into a reputable gallery if you don't have a body of work and they take at least a 40% commission. Selling online with Etsy at http://www.etsy.com/ is a good way of avoiding gallery fees, but it more of a store than a true art gallery.

If you want to go to the workshops, it must be a priority. I love to travel, but I can't travel overseas and have cable TV, drive a fancy car, and eat out every night at fancy restaurants. I budget for travel. What I would do is to sit down to figure out a budget to see the big picture. Crunching the numbers will go a long way. If you think you could make a decent income by selling prints, add that to you budget too. With money, it's hard to separate different expenses. That's my 2 cents worth.

Mainecoonmaniac said:

I think you have to make it a priority. It would be great to finance your workshops by selling prints. It's hard to get into a reputable gallery if you don't have a body of work and they take at least a 40% commission. Selling online with Etsy at http://www.etsy.com/ is a good way of avoiding gallery fees, but it more of a store than a true art gallery.

If you want to go to the workshops, it must be a priority. I love to travel, but I can't travel overseas and have cable TV, drive a fancy car, and eat out every night at fancy restaurants. I budget for travel. What I would do is to sit down to figure out a budget to see the big picture. Crunching the numbers will go a long way. If you think you could make a decent income by selling prints, add that to you budget too. With money, it's hard to separate different expenses. That's my 2 cents worth.

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You've forgotten several important things:

1) She's out of work and recently declared bankruptcy. She has no money to put to this.

2) Beginners NEVER sell photos in enough quantity and a high enough prices to bring in enough money to do anything with.

3) it takes YEARS to get to where you sell enough to live.

4) Galleries won't even talk to her without en exhibition record, unless she knows someone who will give her a chance.

This is an apple, grape, pomegranate and oranges thing. Learning how to photograph, learning to express one's creativity, learning how to make photographs that are salable, be it from school, books, workshops, mentors, what have you, are all separate things. Learning how to actually sell prints is one more discipline. Selling prints at a price that does more than cover your costs on a consistent basis is hard, perhaps harder that the technical and expressive parts of photography combined. It takes serious investment of time, effort and money, assuming that the photographs are salable in the first place. You see many "successful" fine art photographers offering workshops, and that is not just because many find workshops rewarding to teach, but also because it supplements income. I realize the OP is trying to cover just the cost of attending workshops, and that is a good goal. One might first try, however, just seeing if one can cover the costs of the effort to make and sell a few prints. You can't price your prints like you are a famous dead photographer, nor can you price them to compete with the inkjet mills. To sell, get your prints anywhere you can. If you have prints that are of a local flavor, restaurants, boutiques, etc in tourist areas are a good place to get gratis wall space and exposure, but you have the outlay of framing to consider.

I don't mean to discourage, and who knows, maybe you'll go zero to rockstar, but in general, selling prints is at it's core the same as starting and building any other business, and perhaps one of the most difficult to start. Making prints is comparatively easy. Selling is hard. And yes, I have the T-shirt. Reading between the lines, what you are trying to do amounts to bootstrapping a business, while competing with people who are losing money and either don't know it, or don't care, and it will be that much more difficult. Notice I say difficult, not impossible.

Two types of Workshops

I personally host workshops, but they take two forms: One is the classic "welcome to the world of photography, let me show you how to turn on your camera and remove the protective plastic thingy off the battery pack", and the other is the equivalent to being a hunting/fishing guide.

You'll find that most of the location workshops fall more into the hunting/fishing guide category. These are where the "hosts" have identified the photographic hotspots and have GPS'd the exact location to the inch where you need to place your tripods. They run a pretty tight schedule and will give you about 20 minutes to make your masterpiece before crawling back into the van to head on down to the road to the next masterpiece location. At some point during these workshops, you'll spend an hour in front of a computer learning some Photoshop trick. You are almost guaranteed to be pressed into purchasing some widget the host happens to sell.

There is a hybrid approach, though. These workshops usually meet in some decent location, but more often than not, in a more "normal" environment than exotic. Who wants to spend classroom time inside a darkened room when the clouds are scraping the mountain-tops outdoors? These are the workshops where you can leave most of your camera gear at home. You are there to learn. The classes are usually very specific and each session builds on the previous one. Figure about 15 hours of classroom instruction. The photography sessions are your "lab work", not portfolio-stuffing opportunities. Save that for the next couple of days after the class has ended and you booked extra vacation days.

When I hosted the Isle Royale Workshop, that one was more "fishing/hunting guide" than "workshop". I spent a long time and considerable expense planning and researching for that one. I've also invested time and effort into an Upper Pensinsula Workshop as well as a Colorado Workshop which will also fall into that "fishing/hunting guide" category. At the same time, I am investing in instructional materials that is appropriate for the participants so they will feel that they got more out of it than just a van driver.

But then there are the bread-and-butter workshops. These are the ones where most of the participants have purchased some fine piece of photographic gear but are clueless how to use it. I hate to say it, but a 2:1 instructor to student ratio (yes I said 2:1 not 1:2), seems to be about right. Does wonders to the budget--that's why we sell widgets!

As to the cost of a workshop, there are two things to consider:
1. This is education. What is education worth?
2. How does the price compare to an equal amount of time at Disney?

Education is never cheep. I have three workshops on my short-list of attending in the next two years, but figure then $6000-8000 which I will end up spending if I attend all three will come back to me not in a direct sales-profit, but in an improvement in my own self and skills which most likely will result in more money, but if not at least I am a better man for having done them.

Ken Norton
www.zone-10.com

chriscrawfordphoto said:

You've forgotten several important things:

1) She's out of work and recently declared bankruptcy. She has no money to put to this.

2) Beginners NEVER sell photos in enough quantity and a high enough prices to bring in enough money to do anything with.

3) it takes YEARS to get to where you sell enough to live.

4) Galleries won't even talk to her without en exhibition record, unless she knows someone who will give her a chance.

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I agree with your first 3 points and am always amazed at people who just think their work will sell enough right away to make a living at it. But on point 4 I disagree. While there are galleries that will not talk to anyone, she has little to lose by contacting galleries for their advice. Some of the galleries in the larger cities might be less willing but when i took out my personal work I had little problem having NYC galleries look at my work and some even offered me representation. So you never know.....

But back specifically to the original poster, if she's in economic hard times, she needs to get a job with health benefits and not spend time or money chasing a photographic dream.

I agree

JBrunner said:

This is an apple, grape, pomegranate and oranges thing. Learning how to photograph, learning to express one's creativity, learning how to make photographs that are salable, be it from school, books workshops, mentors, what have you, are all separate things. Learning how to actually sell prints is one more discipline. Selling prints at a price that does more than cover your costs on a consistent basis is hard, perhaps harder that the technical and expressive parts of photography combined. It takes serious investment of time, effort and money, assuming that the photographs are salable in the first place. You see many "successful" fine art photographers offering workshops, and that is not just because many find workshops rewarding to teach, but also because it supplements income. I realize the OP is trying to cover just the cost of attending workshops, and that is a good goal. One might first try, however, just seeing if one can cover the costs of the effort to make and sell a few prints. You can't price your prints like you are a famous dead photographer, nor can you price them to compete with the inkjet mills. To sell, get your prints anywhere you can. If you have prints that are of a local flavor, restaurants, boutiques, etc in tourist areas are a good place to get gratis wall space and exposure, but you have the outlay of framing to consider.

I don't mean to discourage, and who knows, maybe you'll go zero to rockstar, but in general, selling prints is at it's core the same as starting and building any other business, and perhaps one of the most difficult to start. Making prints is comparatively easy. Selling is hard. And yes, I have the T-shirt. Reading between the lines, what you are trying to do amounts to bootstrapping a business, while competing with people who are losing money and either don't know it, or don't care, and it will be that much more difficult. Notice I say difficult, not impossible.

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I agree with you that it's difficult, but not impossible. I think APUGers are unfair in disclosing her financial status and using "NEVER" when it comes to selling enough prints. Who knows, she might being a rock star photographer. It's up to the galleries and the public to determine that. Not just a couple of APUGers. She might end up teaching workshops herself. We all have dreams right? I wish her luck.

Mainecoonmaniac said:

I agree with you that it's difficult, but not impossible. I think APUGers are unfair in disclosing her financial status and using "NEVER" when it comes to selling enough prints. Who knows, she might being a rock star photographer. It's up to the galleries and the public to determine that. Not just a couple of APUGers. She might end up teaching workshops herself. We all have dreams right? I wish her luck.

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She disclosed her financial status herself. None of us know her personally, we do not even know her real name or even if she is a she, so all we're going on is what she told us here. She told us that she lost her job and had to declare bankruptcy. No one's judging her for that, you can't help it if your employer lays you off because of the bad economy (thats what she says happened to her, she wasn't fired) and if you have no job, you can't well be expected to pay bills, so declaring bankruptcy was probably something she was forced to do in that situation.

There seem to be some people here who are taking their personal experiences and presenting them as some kind of universal (and rather negative) truths about what can and cannot be done, who can do it and with what specific education, how many years of what kind of work, etc...

I appreciate reading the more realistic comments about these pertinent questions and considerations of workshops / education, and selling / marketing work. I'm sure most can agree that yes, it's hard to do, but hopefully for most it's a labor of love and that, in a nutshell, there are very good workshops out there (I have yet to attend any at all) and that there are also some that aren't so hot. Ken N seems to have given a pretty good approximation - clearly from experience - about what one might be able to expect if one does their homework on workshops, and the potential value you could expect.

I also think that when it comes to priorities, we all have to do what we have to do, but let's not discourage those who are apt to follow their dreams, even at great expense and sacrifice. I'm sure there will be many rude awakenings, hardships and discoveries along the way, but I'll bet that's the case of more than one "dead photographer" who's work sells for prices we could only hope to see for ourselves in our lifetimes.

To the OP: Listen to what people say here, sort the wheat from the chaff if you can and then go for it! You may learn some things the hard way, but sometimes the old "no pain, no gain" cliche still rings true.

chriscrawfordphoto said:

You've forgotten several important things:

1) She's out of work and recently declared bankruptcy. She has no money to put to this.

2) Beginners NEVER sell photos in enough quantity and a high enough prices to bring in enough money to do anything with.

3) it takes YEARS to get to where you sell enough to live.

4) Galleries won't even talk to her without en exhibition record, unless she knows someone who will give her a chance.

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A rather Unpleasant post, part of a string of them in fact with probably only one fact of truth, you seem to be targeting the OP, taking out your own angst against her.

In post #22 she tells you who she's working for, and the wage or hours cuts impossed by the State Governor.

She's just paid for a workshop, so if I was her I'd be thinking of suing you for malicious libel. your words are in writing held on a US server.

Beginners can sell prints, it's a lot harder but if work's good enough then it can happen.

If she has the talent she could be exhibiting within a year, selling prints. It's pure luck.

She's asking for help and advice, not vitriol.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

A rather Unpleasant post, part of a string of them in fact with probably only one fact of truth, you seem to be targeting the OP, taking out your own angst against her.

In post #22 she tells you who she's working for, and the wage or hours cuts impossed by the State Governor.

She's just paid for a workshop, so if I was her I'd be thinking of suing you for malicious libel. your words are in writing held on a US server.

Beginners can sell prints, it's a lot harder but if work's good enough then it can happen.

If she has the talent she could be exhibiting within a year, selling prints. It's pure luck.

She's asking for help and advice, not vitriol.

Ian

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I gave her my advice and it was the truth whether you like it or not. Nearly everyone else here who is an actual professional artist has said the same thing because, big surprise, we actually KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. I wrote what I did to help her, but a lot of people who have no clue about what we're talking about have felt the need to interject a bunch of feelgood nonsense that is NOT going to help the OP in her situation.

Well I have to say the workshop I attended with an APUG member was one of the most valuable investments in my photgraphy I have ever made. I intend to participate in a few more as well. People I know and trust have attended the workshops and came away with new insights, techniques and tools. I am certain that most of us could list workshops that have truly made a difference for us.

I find the blanket statement that "Workshops are playtime for rich amatuers and a way for professionals to fleece the rich." to be silly. If the "Fine Art Photographer" who made the comment has bad experiences with workshops it may be more a statement about his ability to choose wisely.

If there are specific workshops that are rip-offs then maybe adress them but don't throw everyone under the bus.

Thank you,

Bob