Final rinse problems - photoflo

I've got a problem with my final rinse techniques. I do the Ilford washing method, and then finish it off with a quick rinse in freshly made photo flo, using distilled water. Now, I took a break from developing/shooting for awhile during the period I was trying to graduate and move. Now that I'm back at it, I'm having some issues with a couple of 'specks' of crud. The crud is not dust, its some kind of oily residue that I can 'buff' out with a small brush. It is worse at the top of the roll, presumably due to stuff dripping down from the hanging clips.

As you can tell, I'm pretty sure it has to do with too much photoflo in the solution. Last time I mixed 20 drops from a dropper into a liter of distilled water. This time I only did 10 drops. I'd like to say it was a little better, but I'm not entirely sure. What I did notice this time was that after 5 hours of hanging to dry, there were 3 small wet droplets on the film. This must have been the same material, because when i went to brush it off, it made a mess. Definitely not water.

I just measured my drops, and it looks like roughly 100 drops for about 5 ml. So 10 drops is about .5 ml. Mixed with 1 liter of water is a concentration of 1:2000. This is photoflo 200. Should I knock it down further? 5 drops? 2?

Help!

Oily residue? I'd be the first to advocate sparing use of Photoflo, but at 1+2000 I don't think that too much is your problem. So the first thing I'll ask is, are the clips clean? That could be part of your problem right there. I'm using about 1+500 with tap water and that seems to work fine for me. I know this isn't much help, but I'd look for any other sources of possible contamination. My rule of thumb with Photoflo is that it should be used only enough to make the water sheet off the film. If there are water beads when you hang it to dry, it's not enough. If you get a lot of foam, it's too much.

Hmmm. Oily residue... I take a gallon jug of tap water, dump in 2 teaspoons, and use a 4oz or so for as many rolls as I have. No problem. Sounds like your going flo-crazy. But you say you're not. Try doing the final rinse in just water and compare. Sounds like you have something else going on.

It may be calcium salts in the water reacting with the photoflo. Have you tried a mix with distilled water for your final rinse?

Tim Gray said:

...and then finish it off with a quick rinse in freshly made photo flo, using distilled water.

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Definitely not water problem. Note the slightly mis-interpretable phrase "using distilled water".

tim

you put 20 drops in a litre of water ?
that might be your problem ...
i put about 1 drop or 2 in a litre / reel tank
8x10, 5x7 tray, oriental film washer &C.

rewash your film
and try using a tiny amount of photo flo
and see if that helps with your problem ..

john

To clarify: I mix all my chems and photoflo with distilled water. Only the washing steps use tap water.

I'll try the next batch of film with just a distilled water final rinse. And then maybe a drop or two.

Tim Gray said:

What I did notice this time was that after 5 hours of hanging to dry,
there were 3 small wet droplets on the film. This must have been
the same material, because when i went to brush it off, it made
a mess.Definitely not water. Help!

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I doubt that PhotoFlo is a problem even at full strength were all
those processing roll film to rinse their eight blade film squeegees
in the PhotFlo solution prior to it's application. A slow, careful,
downward stroke will leave a fast drying roll of film. Dan

The one thing I've heard is to put a wee bit of alcohol in the final rinse with the photo flo. I personally only use distilled water in my final rinse and have not had any sorts of problems with spots & such. photo flo gave me headaches, so I dumped it.

Oily drops running down from the clips? That sounds like gunk building up on the clips. I always wash my clips with hot water and really scrub well with a brush or abrasive pad.

PE

I'm sure to be excommunicated for this, but I use a clean machine dried old fashioned baby diaper to gently wipe the water from the strip of negatives. I do not believe in wetting agents. Any such thing you add to water is quite likely to remain where the water was before it evaporated. Besides, I had diapers from 6 kids to find uses for. I have had no drying mishaps as a result.

In defense of dirty clips, while I should certainly wash mine, the last two times I dev'd film, I used clean clothes pins. The dripping action I described I think is just due to the fact that there is wet film clipped under some surface which provides lots of nooks and cranny's for the water on the film to sit. Its the last place to dry.

gainer said:

I'm sure to be excommunicated for this, but I use a clean machine dried old fashioned baby diaper to gently wipe the water from the strip of negatives. I do not believe in wetting agents. Any such thing you add to water is quite likely to remain where the water was before it evaporated. Besides, I had diapers from 6 kids to find uses for. I have had no drying mishaps as a result.

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Do you recommend disposables?

Ok, here's an update. I did two rolls last night with using only distilled water as the final rinse (no photo flo mixed in). They seemed to be better. Of course, after they dried overnight, and I went to sleeve them, I must have missed a big glob on the tail end of one roll, because when I put the neg strip into its sleeve, it smeared.

The third roll I dev'd I used one drop of photoflo in 16 oz of distilled water. It really helped the water roll off (the first two had a lot of drops on them). It appears to have no problems, but I haven't looked too closely yet.

I really don't get this. Its almost like there's something in the distilled water I'm using. It seems like as the water evaporates off the film, something in it is getting more and more concentrated as the drop size decreases, until I'm finally left with a couple spots of concentrated junk.

Some more thoughts while in the shower/driving to work. Here's a list of things that have changed since I started having this problem.

1 - I moved. The quality of water most likely changed. However, all chems and final rinse are made with distilled water. The only tap water used is during the washing stages.

2 - I have a new brand of distilled water. One would think that it wouldn't matter, as distilled water should be distilled water, but who knows.

3 - I purchased 2 new Hewes reels and a 4 reel tank. Maybe I didn't wash them well enough. However, one would think after 2-3 times through the development cycle (with a scrube afterwards) that any manufacturing crud would be off of them.

4 - I've been using clothes pins instead of film clips. They should be clean, but maybe they have some crap on them. Regardless, it was a test for something else, so I think I'll go back to my metal clips.

5 - This phenomenom seems to occur more at the top of the roll. Whether this means something is coming from the hanging device or not, I'm not sure. After all, for me, the top of the roll always dries last, so that might have something to do with it as well.

I'd just like to say that I've never had a problem like this until the last 3 dev cycles. I've been at this for about 2 years. I always take good care of my chems and equipment - Containers are for specific chemicals, I wash everything, film rolls only leave their plastic case to be loaded in the camera - they return immediatly afterwards, etc.

I use Mr. Nanian's technique, 1-2 drops per liter. Anything more just adds scum and makes the water soapy.
I don't measure a liter of water, I just keep the film in the tank after the fix, fill with water and stick my finger into the photoflo. Let 1-2 drops fall into the tank and wash your hand. I don't agitate much, just pull the reels up and let them fall back down to get the photoflo distributed. Pull the reels out and hang film. I don't flick them or anything, not sure if you're supposed to.

I use stainless steel tanks and hewes reels. I have a 4 reel tank. Holds probably less than a liter but photoflo goes a long way. I use plastic clothespins. I've used dirty wood ones from outside in a pinch. Worked fine, no scum/crud.

Upon further inspection last night, both sets of film I just developed have these spots on them. Both the ones with just a distilled water final bath, and the one with the one drop of photoflo. So it doesn't look like photoflo is the culprit.

Are they only on the backside of the film [the non emulsion one]? If yes, that is exactly the problem I'm having, and I blame my tap water for it.

-Sino.

Yes. The shiny side.

I only use tap for the wash step. I'd hate to have to use distilled for that....

Tim Gray said:

Yes. The shiny side.

I only use tap for the wash step. I'd hate to have to use distilled for that....

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I use the Ilford method to wash (three cycles of agitation and 5 minute soaks instead of running water). Maybe try that with distilled water or filtered water. If the problem goes away, it was the wash water; if it persists, then it's something else. -Laura

Definitely sounds like too high of a photoflo concentration.
In my experience in Ottawa, with hard water, 1:300 or 1:400 is adequate to prevent hard water stains on drying after a final tap water rinse, 1:200 can leave greasy residue. Presumably with a distilled water final rinse even less than 1:400 should be adequate as the dissolved solids should be very low.

Dave,

I have the exact same problem, at least as far as I can understand, and I'm not using any photoflo at all. That's why I blame my tap water for the problem.

-Sino.

Try without the clothespins...

Any wooden material, no matter how dry/clean when you obtained it, could still exude some organic material such as oils or resins, esp. when re-wetted.

Some folks deal with the issue of unwanted materials in water by doing a final rinse or a final squirt of distilled water. Some add PhotoFlo, some not. If your issue is junk in the water, maybe these folks are on to something.

In any case, you only need enough PhotoFlo to get the final rinse to sheet off the film neatly. The ideal is not to have droplets form where they can leave diposits as the water dries.

C

Next batch of film will be fully washed in distilled, instead of just the final wash, to see how it affects things.