Filtering lith prints or not?

silvercloud2323 · Jul 11, 2024

Hello , has anyone advice on this? A lith question.

Lith printing requires an overexposure of 2 - 3 stops based on a conventional black and white exposure. This is done with magenta , cyan and yellow filters.

Do i have to use the same C, M, Y filtering for exposure of my lith print again?

Or do i have to deactivate those filters?

And let it unfiltered expose the negative?

ic-racer · Jul 11, 2024

What kind of paper are you using. Most of the paper I used to use, didn't show any difference in the light used during exposure. I use white light to get a shorter exposure.

Dali · Jul 11, 2024

Ask yourself what would be the purpose of these filters in the lith process...

silvercloud2323 · Jul 11, 2024

Dali said:
Ask yourself what would be the purpose of these filters in the lith process...

Good question, i guess control contrast in high and lowlights.

But i thought in lith prints, the contrast was controlled by exposure and development ?

koraks · Jul 12, 2024

You generally don't use the cyan filter!

As to using filters for with prints: yes, you can use them for lith, but they are much less needed than for regular printing. With lith, you generally control contrast through exposure and development. Expose less and develop longer for higher contrast, and vice versa.

When doing lith, you overexpose the paper dramatically and the effect of this is that your highlights will never blow out. This extreme compensating effect virtually eradicates the need to use contrast filters in exposure. The depth of the shadows is then controlled as indicated above, through exposure and development.

Still, you definitely can use contrast filters, too - it's just that it's not really needed, and mostly results in already long exposure times getting even longer since the filters absorb some light.

jimjm · Jul 12, 2024

The density and detail in the highlights and midtones is increased with more exposure. The shadows are determined by the amount of time you leave the print in the developer. Snatching the print at the right time is extremely important to keep the shadows from blocking up. Tim Rudman's lith printing books have been a huge help for me.
Short exposure = higher contrast but muted colors (generally)
Long exposure = lower contrast and richer colors (generally)
With a long exposure, the highlights and midtones have a chance to develop details before the shadows start to get too dark.
Using filters will have little to no effect with lithable papers. I use no filters and this helps to keep the exposure times as short as possible.

The image below was from a high-contrast scene and the grass in the foreground kept going all black before the clouds started showing any detail. This took a +3.5 stop exposure with a lot of burning in the sky and some dodging in the center of the image. I got one print I liked on old Forte Fortezo paper, but haven't been able to recreate it yet on new Foma 131 paper. Every paper is different and your choice of developer type and dilution will also make a difference.

silvercloud2323 · Jul 12, 2024

koraks said:
You generally don't use the cyan filter!

As to using filters for with prints: yes, you can use them for lith, but they are much less needed than for regular printing. With lith, you generally control contrast through exposure and development. Expose less and develop longer for higher contrast, and vice versa.

When doing lith, you overexpose the paper dramatically and the effect of this is that your highlights will never blow out. This extreme compensating effect virtually eradicates the need to use contrast filters in exposure. The depth of the shadows is then controlled as indicated above, through exposure and development.

Still, you definitely can use contrast filters, too - it's just that it's not really needed, and mostly results in already long exposure times getting even longer since the filters absorb some light.

Thank you!
one more question:

To decide what basic exposure time i'm going to use , with an over-exposure of 2 - 3 steps for the lith print. I take a basic exposure on the enlarger of my film.
But that exposure is based on measurement (conventional photography), With the filters applied ...
When I want to do my lith exposure ,i take that basic exposure + 2-3 steps more, but then Without the filters.
Will there not be a problem? IT does not correspond anymore to my point of view.
The first is based on filters and the second no more.

Or have i forgotten something?

silvercloud2323 · Jul 12, 2024

jimjm said:
The density and detail in the highlights and midtones is increased with more exposure. The shadows are determined by the amount of time you leave the print in the developer. Snatching the print at the right time is extremely important to keep the shadows from blocking up. Tim Rudman's lith printing books have been a huge help for me.
Short exposure = higher contrast but muted colors (generally)
Long exposure = lower contrast and richer colors (generally)
With a long exposure, the highlights and midtones have a chance to develop details before the shadows start to get too dark.
Using filters will have little to no effect with lithable papers. I use no filters and this helps to keep the exposure times as short as possible.

The image below was from a high-contrast scene and the grass in the foreground kept going all black before the clouds started showing any detail. This took a +3.5 stop exposure with a lot of burning in the sky and some dodging in the center of the image. I got one print I liked on old Forte Fortezo paper, but haven't been able to recreate it yet on new Foma 131 paper. Every paper is different and your choice of developer type and dilution will also make a difference.

View attachment 373901

Thanks for the answer
Love the image!
The colours, the sky and sun...

koraks · Jul 12, 2024

For determining the base exposure, it's Ok to not use the filters at all. Just make a print/strip so that you get the midtones approximately right and don't worry about the rest. Add 3 stops or so to that exposure and lith process. Then adjust your exposure and development depending on how that first test comes out.

Dali · Jul 12, 2024

jimjm said:
The density and detail in the highlights and midtones is increased with more exposure. The shadows are determined by the amount of time you leave the print in the developer. Snatching the print at the right time is extremely important to keep the shadows from blocking up. Tim Rudman's lith printing books have been a huge help for me.
Short exposure = higher contrast but muted colors (generally)
Long exposure = lower contrast and richer colors (generally)
With a long exposure, the highlights and midtones have a chance to develop details before the shadows start to get too dark.
Using filters will have little to no effect with lithable papers. I use no filters and this helps to keep the exposure times as short as possible.

The image below was from a high-contrast scene and the grass in the foreground kept going all black before the clouds started showing any detail. This took a +3.5 stop exposure with a lot of burning in the sky and some dodging in the center of the image. I got one print I liked on old Forte Fortezo paper, but haven't been able to recreate it yet on new Foma 131 paper. Every paper is different and your choice of developer type and dilution will also make a difference.

View attachment 373901

Great print! But, I agree, it is difficult to get the same result with a different paper (and even with the same paper...).

jimjm · Jul 12, 2024

silvercloud2323 said:
Thanks for the answer
Love the image!
The colours, the sky and sun...

Thanks!
For the first base exposure, I use the same paper, but develop in standard developer. Get an exposure time that gives the desired detail in the midtones then add however many stops of exposure you want. Then develop the following prints in the Lith developer until the shadows get as dark as you want. This is the biggest challenge for me - determining the right moment to snatch the print from the developer before the shadows get too dense, or the image starts to show mottling. Keep notes about your dilutions, exposure times and snatch times for each print and you'll learn to predict the consequences for adjusting these variables for different images.

Filtering lith prints or not?

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Filtering lith prints or not?

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