film washer

RalphLambrecht · Mar 23, 2010

Ronald Moravec said:
Fill tank 6 oz water. Invert 10 times in 30 sec. Repeat 3 more times. Do not use fix with hardener.

You don`t need no fancy washer that uses a ton of water.

That adds up to a 2-minute wash! Sorry, but that ain't enough for me.

CBG · Mar 23, 2010

Rinthe said:
ok i meant if i don't use one of those washers that fills from the bottom and use the ilford washing method (fill, invert 5 times, dump, fill, invert 10 times etc.). would hypo clear still help with the process?

Hypo Clearing Agent - and all such sulfite based washing aids - helps with making it easier to remove hypo from film or fiber based paper regardless of what method is used to wash the material. The most common explanation of the mechanism I have heard is that it expands and opens up the emulsion so that hypo can diffuse out more quickly and easily.

Rinthe · Mar 24, 2010

great, thanks for all the information

new question, if i keep pouring used hypo back into the bottle to reuse, how will i know when the hypo is bad?

fschifano · Mar 24, 2010

Here's a quick way to test your fixer. It's been repeated here more times than I care to count, but here goes anyway. Mind you, this is all predicated on the fact that different films have different clearing times so it is important that you do this test with the same type of film each time. Sacrifice a roll of the cheapest, nastiest B&W film you can find. It will last a long time because you need only about an inch or so to do the test. Next time you mix up a fresh batch of fixer, take about an inch of your "fixer test film", place 1 drop of fresh fixer on the emulsion side and let it sit for about 30 seconds. After 30 seconds or so, immerse the film into the fresh fixer and note how long it takes for the film to clear completely. The area where you placed the initial drop will clear first, and when it's no longer visible, the film is cleared. You should get at least 4 or 5 rolls of film through 1L of fixer before any obvious sign of exhaustion begins to manifest itself. After that, run the test again after each couple of rolls. If the clearing time is still more or less the same as the original clearing time, you're still good. When the clearing time approaches 2x the original time, the fixer is very close to exhaustion and should be discarded.

Rinthe · Mar 24, 2010

thanks for the info fschifano, that will be very useful but i was actually asking about hypo clear.

clayne · Mar 24, 2010

I always use HCA with film. After 2nd fix step, I do a rinse and dump, then HCA 1:4 (Kodak), 20 inversions, dump, then 3 cycles of water w/ 30 inversions.

I've tested dry film cuts with PF residual hypo-test afterward and had no issues. I've toned rolls right out of the last wash cycle in straight Selenium and had no issues. I attribute most of this to 2-bath fixing and non-hurried but pragmatic washing, honestly.

fschifano · Mar 24, 2010

When you say "hypo", I automatically think fixer. That was a common nomenclature for fixer at one time when the most common type of fixer was sodium thiosufate, aka hyposulphite of soda. But to answer your question, there is no practical test for the viability of hypo clearing agent. The best you can do is to follow the manufacturer's recommendation for capacity. But understand that a working solution of hypo clearing agent does not have a very long shelf life. If you prefer, a perfectly good hypo clearing agent can be made by dissolving a tablespoon of sodium sulfite into 1L of water. Use it once and discard it. It's cheap, and works the same as the commercially prepared stuff.

Monophoto · Mar 24, 2010

Rinthe

Re washing -

Washing is a process in which the chemicals in the film emulsion migrate out into surrounding water. Rinsing the film in fresh water, and then soaking it in hypoclear for a minute makes the chemicals in the emulsion more soluble in water and accelerates washing. Agitation or constantly flowing water help, but the key ingredient to good washing is prolonged contact with fresh (uncontaminated) water. Filling your processing tank with fresh water, agitating briefly, allowing it to sit for a minute or so, dumping the water, and then repeating the cycle, will wash the film just as well as one of those fancy washers.

Re hypo -

Yes, hypo can be saved and reused. That is especially true of 'rapid fixers'. But you never want to overuse it. There are several ways to know when it is ready to be dumped:
- count the number of rolls of film that go through the hypo. Manufacturers cite a capacity number for fixer - divide that number by two, and then dump the fixer when you have processed that number of rolls.
- monitor the clearing time. With fresh fixer, the clearing time should be 1-2 minutes, and the total fixing time will be 2-4 minutes. As the fixer is used, the clearing time will become longer. When it reaches twice it's initial value, dump the fixer - it's done.
- use a fixer test solution. Edwal makes a commercial product and I think there are others. And a little research will lead you to formulas if you want to build your own. With conventional fixers, simply put a drop of the test solution into the bottle of fixer - if you see a precipitate, dump the fixer. With rapid fixers, put a small sample of fixer in a container, add a drop of the test solution, and shake. If the solution remains cloudy, it's done and the fixer should be done.

Richard Jepsen · Mar 24, 2010

If you use TF-4 or a similar alkaline fix there is no need to use a hypo clear agent. The Film Developing Cookbook mentions 2 min wash times with TF-4. Fix agents diffuse out of film emulsion much faster using an alkaline fix.

CBG · Mar 24, 2010

Best description I have ever read on checking clearing time. I never heard about the drop 30 sec. early. Great idea

fschifano said:
Here's a quick way to test your fixer. It's been repeated here more times than I care to count, but here goes anyway. Mind you, this is all predicated on the fact that different films have different clearing times so it is important that you do this test with the same type of film each time. Sacrifice a roll of the cheapest, nastiest B&W film you can find. It will last a long time because you need only about an inch or so to do the test. Next time you mix up a fresh batch of fixer, take about an inch of your "fixer test film", place 1 drop of fresh fixer on the emulsion side and let it sit for about 30 seconds. After 30 seconds or so, immerse the film into the fresh fixer and note how long it takes for the film to clear completely. The area where you placed the initial drop will clear first, and when it's no longer visible, the film is cleared. You should get at least 4 or 5 rolls of film through 1L of fixer before any obvious sign of exhaustion begins to manifest itself. After that, run the test again after each couple of rolls. If the clearing time is still more or less the same as the original clearing time, you're still good. When the clearing time approaches 2x the original time, the fixer is very close to exhaustion and should be discarded.

CBG · Mar 24, 2010

Rinthe said:
thanks for the info fschifano, that will be very useful but i was actually asking about hypo clear.

I make a big thing about this, but it's really important. Getting the names right makes a huge difference in darkroom work. Clarity with nomenclature isn't optional: hypo is one thing; hypo clearing agent quite different. Likewise, sulfite and sulfides are not to be swapped. Each seems trivial, but see what happens when you get the wrong one into a process .....

RalphLambrecht · Mar 24, 2010

Rinthe said:
great, thanks for all the information

new question, if i keep pouring used hypo back into the bottle to reuse, how will i know when the hypo is bad?

In 10 years when the negatives start fogging. The double-the-clearing-time test is told to be reliable, but I use film chemicals one-shot. Search for two-bath fixing on Apug for the best fixing method around.

Rinthe · Mar 24, 2010

oh wow i thought hypo and hypo clearing agent are the same! I was talking about hypo clearing agent, how do you know when they're not usable anymore? >< sorry guys!

RalphLambrecht · Mar 24, 2010

Rinthe said:
oh wow i thought hypo and hypo clearing agent are the same! I was talking about hypo clearing agent, how do you know when they're not usable anymore? >< sorry guys!

Hard to tell. Counting rolls and prints will help. Change often is a good method. Mix fresh for each session is best.

CBG · Mar 25, 2010

Rinthe said:
... how do you know when they're not usable anymore? >< sorry guys!

No apology needed.

I dump hypo clearing agents - or "wash aids" sooner rather than later. I don't keep a batch longer than one session. Not necessarily one shot usage, but one session ... With my memory, counting prints is an invitation to disaster.

clayne · Mar 25, 2010

Rinthe said:
oh wow i thought hypo and hypo clearing agent are the same! I was talking about hypo clearing agent, how do you know when they're not usable anymore? >< sorry guys!

Since HCA usually doesn't last more than a session, save yourself some money and order Sodium Sulfite from PF (http://www.freestylephoto.biz/101340-Formulary-Sodium-Sulfite-Powder-1-lb). 5g/L should be fine for film/paper HCA, w/ 20g/L recommended for polysulphide stop-baths (not something you have to worry about right now).

RalphLambrecht · Mar 25, 2010

clayne said:
Since HCA usually doesn't last more than a session, save yourself some money and order Sodium Sulfite from PF (http://www.freestylephoto.biz/101340-Formulary-Sodium-Sulfite-Powder-1-lb). 5g/L should be fine for film/paper HCA, w/ 20g/L recommended for polysulphide stop-baths (not something you have to worry about right now).

I second this recommendation. However, the official Kodak formula for Hypo Clearing Agent (HCA) asks for 20g/l of sodium sulfite for film and paper, making it a 2% solution. The ingredients are easy to obtain and the solution is easy to prepare. It might get you into mixing all your own chemicals!

Depending on your water hardness, you may want to add up to 1g/l of sodium hexametaphosphate (Calgon) after the sodium sulfite has dissolved. Otherwise you end up with calcium deposits on the print.

Hypo-Clearing Agent (HCA-1)

water (52°C/125°F) 750 ml
sodium sulfite (anhydrous) 100 g
sodium hexametaphosphate* 5 g
cold water to make 1,000 ml

dilute 1+4 for film or paper
* add with hard water supplies to prevent calcium scum

clayne · Mar 25, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
I second this recommendation. However, the official Kodak formula for Hypo Clearing Agent (HCA) asks for 20g/l of sodium sulfite for film and paper, making it a 2% solution. The ingredients are easy to obtain and the solution is easy to prepare. It might get you into mixing all your own chemicals!

That's interesting, because according to their toning docs, they recommend ~30g/l for a PS stop-bath. I always figured they were talking straight HCA there. Actually if you think about it Ralph, this makes sense in a way. They ask for dilution of 1+4 from HCA stock, so isn't it really 30 * 1/5? Problem is, it doesn't make sense with their HCA formula, which at 1+4, is 20g/l, as you mentioned.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 25, 2010

I wouldn't know clayne, but working strength HCA is a 2% sodium sulfite solution. Increasing this to 3% as a polysulfide-toner stop-bath makes sense to me, but I would not reduce it to 0.5% for normal use.

Robert Hall · Mar 25, 2010

Rinthe said:
oh wow i thought hypo and hypo clearing agent are the same! I was talking about hypo clearing agent, how do you know when they're not usable anymore? >< sorry guys!

In a tray sulfite (your hypo clearing agent) turns to sulfate in about 4 hours.

Sulfate is much much less effective as a clearing agent, so replace it after 4 hours as it oxidizes quickly.

One can make a concentrated version to mix 1:9 and keep it in a stoppered bottle for ease of use.

Buying sodium sulfite in bulk is very inexpensive and I can buy 50 lbs for the same price as 10 1 liter Kodak packets. Check pool supply or local chem shops for such things.

Rinthe · Mar 25, 2010

thank you for all the suggestions.

I don't do prints, i only develop the film. Ralph, so i don't need the sodium hexametaphosphate if i don't do prints, correct?

RalphLambrecht · Mar 25, 2010

Rinthe said:
thank you for all the suggestions.

I don't do prints, i only develop the film. Ralph, so i don't need the sodium hexametaphosphate if i don't do prints, correct?

Unfortunately, that's not correct. With hard water and without Calgon, you might get calcium deposits on the film as well, and that would be very destructive to the sensitive fim emulsion. I don't find it very difficult to obtain Calgon, so, I would not mix HCA without it.

dancqu · Mar 25, 2010

What Does The Wash Follow?

What sort of fix is given the film.
Two extremes: A fix given in a full strength nearly
exhausted fixer and a fix given using a more dilute
fresh one-shot fix.

It should be obvious that the washing procedures for
each of the two extremes should differ. The suppliers
of the chemistry are no help. They supply us with their
usual one-size-fits-all instructions. And who trusts or
follows those instructions? There are a lot of posts
this thread which describe way ward methods.

The suppliers never mention the use of fresh very
dilute one-shot fix. Yet on every point I believe it to
be a method superior to any other method. A few of
those points; fresh fix each film or films, no need to
rebottle, no records to keep, no need for tests of
strength. Also the fixer's silver load is Very low.
The fixer being very dilute and loaded very
little with silver makes for a water
efficient quick wash. Dan

RalphLambrecht · Mar 26, 2010

dancqu said:
What sort of fix is given the film.
Two extremes: A fix given in a full strength nearly
exhausted fixer and a fix given using a more dilute
fresh one-shot fix.

It should be obvious that the washing procedures for
each of the two extremes should differ. The suppliers
of the chemistry are no help. They supply us with their
usual one-size-fits-all instructions. And who trusts or
follows those instructions? There are a lot of posts
this thread which describe way ward methods.

The suppliers never mention the use of fresh very
dilute one-shot fix. Yet on every point I believe it to
be a method superior to any other method. A few of
those points; fresh fix each film or films, no need to
rebottle, no records to keep, no need for tests of
strength. Also the fixer's silver load is Very low.
The fixer being very dilute and loaded very
little with silver makes for a water
efficient quick wash. Dan

Well said, and an often underestimated point.

CBG · Mar 26, 2010

dancqu said:
... The suppliers of the chemistry are no help. They supply us with their usual one-size-fits-all instructions ...

Given the endless posts here (and I assume elsewhere) detailing confusion regarding, for example: the dilutions for HC-110, the syrup, the intermediate strength stock solution, and various working strength solutions, it's no wonder manufacturers will not offer usually more than one way to do things. Users sometimes seem unwilling to read through the directions and pick out what makes sense.

The makers want users to have ease, speed, simplicity, certainty and success. I don't agree with those goals entirely, but I sympathize with the suppliers.

film washer

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