film speed testing

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alanrockwood

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Hi.

I have a question about film speed testing.

Suppose I have already used my densitometer and determined the right development regime to achieve the appropriate degree of contrast for a given film/development combination to fit my needs.

How do I set the exposure index? Suppose for example, that I set the exposure index of my meter to 800, and when I take a photo of a blank featureless wall using 800 as the exposure index the frame turns out to have an absorbance of 0.1 above base plus fog. My theory is that one would then count four f-stop equivalents to an exposure index of 50. That number (50) would be the exposure index I would use for this film/development combination.

To put it in zone system talk, if I use an exposure index of 800 for the above system it would put a neutral gray object at 0.1 absorbance units above base plus fog (zone I). I would like to put neutral gray in the correct position (zone V), so I would set my light meter to an exposure index of 50.

Does that sound right?
 

snapguy

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Ya

Ya squints yer eyes and take a looksee at the thingamabob ya wanna take a pitcher at. Ya move that gizmo on the front of your box till it seems perty good then ya twists that darn knobbie thing on the top of the box till it looks just dern right and you snap the shutter. Then ya sticks it in the soup till ya can't stand it ennymore and tries not to forgets to toss it in the hypo. Ya don't need no stinkin' fancy equitments, this ain't rocket werk.
 

Steelbar

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How did you determine the developing time to get your contrast density you wanted without starting with an exposure index(or ISO)?
If you use the meter to read a blank(white?) wall your negative should read on the densitometer around .7 on your negative. No matter what tone your wall is it will make it 18% Gray.

Are you using a Kodak or some other Gray scale? If you have a scale just photograph the scale using the gray card to set the exposure, use several ISO settings and the exposure that gives you .1 to .2 over base fog on the 1.60 patch is your ISO.
Not sure this makes any more sense than your posting but I hope it helps
Snapguy your funny,
but some people like to do a little more than just lick there finger and hold it to the wind to predict the weather.
 

Gerald C Koch

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I do not wish to criticize but you seem uncertain about what you are doing and perhaps why you are doing it in the first place. If you do not already have a book on the zone system then you need to get A good one and read it thoroughly. Then read it again. The read it again! Unfortunately getting a good book, one that is easily understandable, is not easy.
 
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Silver key

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Sorry i read this post like 5 times to understand it (and exploded in laughter 10 times, thanks to snapguy) and i still don't understand a thing.
 

Silver key

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I mean in general, you test the speed and development at the same time so by now you should have both your ISO and your developing time.
So you probably did something slightly wrong. So just to be short and clear for you to get it easy the next time ;
1. Use a grey card, no blank walls (color/reflectance of that wall ??!!)
2. Don't touch you ISO, change your aperture or shutter speed.
3. The tests in Zone I is to determine your ISO.
4. The tests on Zone VIII is to see if your development is correct.

Edit : if you need to restart or didn't quite understand the procedure read this : http://www.zone2tone.co.uk/zone-system-film-testing.htm
 
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alanrockwood

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Silver key.

Thanks for the link. It was very helpful. It turns out that the procedure I proposed in my first post for determining the exposure index is mathematically identical to what was described in the link. I won't take the space here to describe why it is equivalent unless someone wants to discuss that.

My method for setting up the development to produce the desired contrast level was not the question I posed. However, my method of setting up contrast is similar in spirit to the link, though I base it on Gbar or contrast index rather than the slope between the speed point and zone VIII. Either way it is still based on a slope between two points on the characteristic curve..
 

Bill Burk

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alanrockwood,

You were right on the first post: 800 = Zone V gave you the correct exposure for Zone I, so you count speeds... 400 = Zone IV, 200 = Zone III, 100 = Zone II, 50 = Zone I.

So you set your Exposure Index to 50.
 
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alanrockwood

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alanrockwood,

You were right on the first post: 800 = Zone V gave you the correct exposure for Zone I, so you count speeds... 400 = Zone IV, 200 = Zone III, 100 = Zone II, 50 = Zone I.

So you set your Exposure Index to 50.

Thanks Bill.
 

Silver key

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Hey no problem !
I now understand what you did and searched for and in these conditions Bill Burk and you are right.
50 is indeed your exposure index.
 

David Allen

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I am not a fan of Zone Testing using a densitometer as I have never got it to work for me (this does not mean that it will not work for others of course!).

When someone comes on one of my courses and wants to pin down EI and development time, I always take them through a 'real world' testing regime. This involves doing all of the testing based upon what your eyes tell you rather than what a densitometer tells you. So what the hell is 'real world' testing?

Well, in my opinion, the key to achieving consistently good negatives is the correct placement of your shadows when exposing the film and ascertaining the correct development time for achieving good separation without losing the highlights. A simple and relatively quick way to way to pin all this down for the future is to do the following (WARNING: reading these instructions is more time consuming and a lot more laborious than actually doing it!!):

1. Find a scene with with a good range of tones
2. Using the box speed, meter the darkest area in which you wish to retain shadow detail
3. Move the camera so that you are only photographing this shadow area
4. From the meter's reading close down the aperture by 2 stops or increase the shutter speed by two stops and then expose 6 frames at: the given exposure then +1 stop, +2 stops, -1 stop, -2 stops and -3 stops less than the meter has indicated

5. Process the film

6. Using the frame that was exposed at -3 stops less than the meter indicated (which should be practically clear but will have received lens flair and fogging - i.e a real world maximum black rather than an exposed piece of film that has processing fog) and do a test strip to find out what is the minimum exposure to achieve maximum black - Print must be fully dry before assessing this
7. Do another test strip with the first exposure being what you have selected for achieving maximum black minus your dry-down compensation then plus 1 second, 2 seconds, etc
8. The time that achieves full black inclusive of compensation for dry-down is you minimum exposure to achieve maximum black for all future printing sessions - print must be fully dry before assessing
9 You now know the minimum time to achieve full black inclusive of exposure reduction to accommodate dry-down
10. Using this minimum exposure to achieve maximum black exposure time, expose all of the other test frames.
11. The test print that has good shadow detail indicates which exposure will render good shadow detail and achieve maximum black and provides you with your personal EI for the tested film/developer combination

12 If the negative exposed at the meter reading gives good shadows, your EI is (when metering shadows where you wish to retain good detail) the box speed (i.e. for 400 film you need to set your meter at 400)
13. If the negative exposed at +1 stop more than the meter reading gives good shadows, your EI is (when metering shadows where you wish to retain good detail) 1/2 the box speed (i.e. for 400 film you need to set your meter at 200)
14. If the negative exposed at +2 stops more than the meter reading gives good shadows, you EI is (when metering shadows where you wish to retain good detail) 1/4 box speed (i.e. for 400 film you need to set your meter at 100)
15. If the negative exposed at -1 stop less than the meter reading gives good shadows, you EI is (when metering shadows where you wish to retain good detail) double the box speed (i.e. for 400 film you need to set your meter at 800)
16. If the negative exposed at -2 stop less than the meter reading gives good shadows, you EI is (when metering shadows where you wish to retain good detail) 4x the box speed (i.e. for 400 film you need to set your meter at 1600)

You have now fixed your personal EI but there is one more testing stage to go.

1. Find a scene with with a good range of tones
2. Using your EI, meter the brightest area in which you wish to retain highlight detail
3. Move the camera so that you are only photographing this highlight area
4. From the meter's reading open up the aperture by 3 stops or decrease the shutter speed by three stops
5. Expose the whole roll at this setting
6. In the darkroom, process one third of the film for recommended development time

7. When dry put negative in the enlarger and make a three section test strip exposing for half the minimum black time established earlier, for the established minimum black time and for double the minimum black time.
8. Process print and dry it.
9. If the section of the test strip exposed for 1/2 the minimum black time gives bright highlights with a trace of detail then the film requires 20% more development
10. If the section of the test strip exposed for the minimum black time gives bright highlights with a trace of detail then the film is correctly developed
11. If the section of the test strip exposed for double the minimum black time gives bright highlights with a trace of detail then the film requires 20% less development
12. You can use the rest of the exposed highlight test film to fine tune the development time.

YES - it is VERY boring (but no more boring than taking densitometer readings and plotting curves) but . . .for the investment of minimal materials and a few of hours you will have pinned down so many variables that it is really worth doing.

Back in the real world, all you need to do in future is meter the shadows that you wish to retain good detail with meter set at your EI and then stop down the aperture 2 stops or increase the shutter speed by 2 stops. In the darkroom start your first test print with the minimum exposure to achieve maximum black (inclusive of dry-down compensation) and go from there.

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de
 
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alanrockwood

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I have been testing Arista Edu Ultra 200 (rebranded Fomapan 200). My results indicate an exposure index of 40 using LMAX developer (clone of T-Max developer) at a dilution of 1+6. This was in a Phototherm rotary processor at 75 F and a development time of 3:00. The contrast (as measured by Gbar) was 0.54. If I use a dilution of 1+5 under the same conditions (e.g. development time of 3:00) I get an exposure index of 64 and a Gbar of 0.65. I figure a dilution of 1+5.5 will give an exposure index of about 50 at a Gbar of about 0.60

This exposure index is a lot lower than I expected. I expected something in the neighborhood of 100.
 

Bill Burk

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I'd say that 50 was your speed by "Zone System" test methodology.

It's fairly well-agreed that this methodology arrives at speeds 2/3 stop "less" than ISO speed.

So your findings might compare to standard methodology test results of 80 speed.

You might start to ask yourself some questions: What might have caused you to get "80" instead of "200"?

Is the difference due to shutter speed accuracy? Neutrality of Gray Card? Meter calibration or usage? Light source (did you use photofloods - thus get a "Tungsten" speed?) Maybe the film and developer?

Get those answers at your leisure and then as you solve each riddle, adapt accordingly...

Meanwhile, it would not hurt to use the numbers you found: Use the film at EI 50 when you use Zone System metering... And use EI 80 if you want to use standard (e.g., camera averaging) metering.
 
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alanrockwood

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Bill,

Yes, it is zone system methodology, at least as I interpret the concept. It is good to know about the 2/3 stop difference. That accounts for most of the issue, considering that many people claim that Fomapan 200 is actually closer to 100 speed.

Good idea about shooting it both ways.
 
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