Film speed test in winter

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They will typically recommend reducing development time by around 15% for condenser enlarging. But 15% overdevelopment would not bring you down to a #00 filter. Something strange here.

That's what I was thinking. Processing for the wrong type of enlarger won't account for the degree of apparent contast Kenton is experience. His statement about the f/Stop made me think that there's something he might not be telling us because he doesn't know all the influences. That the negatives are fine or slightly contrasty but the problem is doing something wrong elsewhere. We need to start to eliminate some of the possibilities beginning with the film processing. Either testing using a step tablet or finding the density range of one of the negatives he has used to print.
 
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kbrede

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OK, I was out of T-Max, so I did some testing on Delta 400. On the North side of the house I photographed my wife wearing a white shirt with texture, a dark blue sweater and holding a gray card. I took an incident reading from her position, pointed at the camera. I shot one frame with what the meter gave me, at box speed, and then opened up the aperture 1/2 stops, 4 times. So a total of 5 shots. I used up the rest of the roll, doing some spot metering. The last exposure I took the camera into the darkroom, with the lens cap on, and took the last frame.

I processed the film in DD-X using 15% less time than published, 8.5 minutes. I used the same developing regime as I outlined a few posts back. I made a few test strips and found max black to be 8 seconds at f/32, with #2 filter. The enlarger was set up to print an 8x10 print.

I used the max black settings to expose frame 1 and frame 2, with a #2 filter. The detail was fine in the sweater, on frame one but the sweater was too gray. Frame two, which was exposed 1/2 stop more, was trending in the wrong direction. So contrary to the directions I was following in, "Way Beyond Monochrome," I should have stopped down, instead of opening up.

For kicks I took the same negative and made a print, so the sweater looked naturally dark. That was 10 seconds at f/22, #2 filter. The shirt was blown out and the gray card wasn't quite dark enough.

So, extrapolating from that, I'd have to shoot at ISO 800 to get a decent black, printing with the max black exposure settings. The problem is, I'm at f/32.

As I mentioned before, my meter is calibrated and I checked it against another meter I just bought new. Both meters matched. The Mamiya that shot the neg in question is from KEH and rated excellent. I also shot a Rolleiflex at the same time, which was just CLAed by Krimer Photo. The Rollei neg printed a little lighter than the Mamiya neg at max black, maybe 1/2 stop. So I think the meter and the camera isn't the issue.

My enlarger uses a 75 watt bulb. I bought a new bulb for my enlarger. I tried the new bulb and the bulb it came with, both printed the same. I pulled the condenser. It just looked like two big magnifying glasses on either end. Nothing looked skewed or out of place. The head was set for 6x7 or 6x6, depending on which neg I was printing.

I made a print at max black, totally in the dark, and it matched the one done with the safe light. I bought some ilford paper. I gained a stop using the ilford paper over the Ultrafine I'd been using. I also checked and made sure the aperture blades were moving on the 80mm El-Nikor. Pan developer was at 20c. Neg was placed emulsion side down in the carrier. Mirrors in the bathroom were all covered. The enlarging filters are brand new.

I'm stumped. I'm attaching a photo of the neg I printed. The density looks pretty close on my computer screen.
 

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kbrede

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Nope, I've never done any testing with Tri-X. This is the first test I've done with any film. Just n general I didn't have problems using Tri-X but I was also using a different enlarger. I should have tried a Tri-X neg with this enlarger today. Drat.
 
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kbrede

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I'll try to summarize the method.

Taking the exposures:

A. Find a subject rich in detailed shadows (Zone III) and has some shadow tonality (Zone II).

B. Set light meter ISO to box speed.

C. Stop lens down 4 stops from wide open, f/8. Take an incident reading, finding the shutter speed using this aperture. Keep the exposure time within ⅛ to 1/250 or modify the aperture for the duration of the test.

D. Take the following exposures:


  1. Use settings from step C.
  2. Open ⅓ stop.
  3. Open ⅓ stop.
  4. Open ⅓ stop.
  5. Open ⅓ stop.
  6. Open ⅓ stop.
  7. Use settings from step C.
  8. Use settings from step C.
  9. Take a blank negative. (lens cap on)
  10. Use settings from step C.

E. Develop the film for 15% less time than normal.

* I used 1/2 stops, instead of 1/3 stops. My scene was wife wearing dark blue sweater, white shirt and holding gray card.

To find paper black:


  • Use blank negative from step 9 above. Scratch in order to have something to focus on.
  • Set enlarger to make 8x10 print.
  • Insert #2 filter.
  • Focus negative
  • Stop lens down 3 stops.
  • Make a test strip.
  • Process normally and dry.
  • In normal light, make sure there are at least two but not more than five exposures, which are so dark they hardly differ.
  • Pic out the first two steps that barely differ from one another and select the lighter of the two..
  • This is your paper black settings.

** I think I made a mistake in picking my max black. It should have been 10 seconds at f/32 and not 8 seconds at f/32.

Find effective film speed:

Make prints of the first 6 exposures taken in step "D" and dry.
The exposure settings that result in the first print with good shadow detail, is your EI.
 
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Kenton, the scanned negative looks fine. It may even be a bit flat. I believe you are misinterpreting the printing results. I don't know why you are trying to tie in exposure with contrast. If the negative has some extra density, print it down. There is no set relationship between negative density and print density. Forget the just black test. You are confusing yourself. Take a step back. Now, just do a test strip. See how the image changes with exposure. Pick what appears closest to what you think is natural, then make a print at that setting.

I've inverted the negative and darkened the image some. You have a very usable negative.

 
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kbrede

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I did a few test strips. With a #2 filter I ended up with 10 seconds at f/22, which resulted in nice blacks. Thats the main issue. I shouldn't have to close down that far to get a decent shadow area out of a negative, off an incident reading in shade.
 

MattKing

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The 10 seconds at f/22 with a #2 filter is a function of your enlarger light source, not the film, exposure or development.

It is just too bright for this size of print (unless you are printing in volume).

EDIT: and this explains why you are having troubles with a "minimum exposure for maximum black" testing sequence - that only works well when you get results that are practical (e.g. 16 seconds at f/8).
 
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kbrede

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The 10 seconds at f/22 with a #2 filter is a function of your enlarger light source, not the film, exposure or development.

It is just too bright for this size of print (unless you are printing in volume).

The 75 watt light bulb I'm using for my Beseler 23c II is what the manual recommends. I've read nothing about swapping out different light sources for different sizes of prints. Not that I haven't thought of doing so. I wouldn't think an 8x10 print would be that unusual. What do you mean by, "printing in volume"?

Thanks,
 
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kbrede

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Well I've done a little research and many others with the 23c are having the same issue. The fix seems to be, get a lower watt bulb, which is suppose to be hard to find, or use an ND Filter.
 

MattKing

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Hmmm, maybe I'll try a lamp dimmer switch.

Lamp dimmers can cause problems with the colour temperature of the light, especially if they are adjusted between printing sessions.
 

MattKing

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What do you mean by, "printing in volume"?

Thanks,

If you were doing high quantities of prints in a production environment (e.g. think school photos) then short exposure times are important.
 

Chuck_P

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Is this an appropriate time to emphasis the critical evaluation issue? Bumper sticker idea: Know your Theory!

No, let it be.............but if you could show us a photograph of theory, now, that would be something.
 

Bill Burk

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Now kbrede,

If you were to pull the negative a little bit in the carrier so it shows a little air - you should get maximum black there - and it should be "close" to the maximum black of your film. This may rule out any impact "developing the film" may have confused you with.

(35mm has a higher density on purpose - but 120 usually is close to clear - so if you can get black on clear air you can get black anywhere).
 
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if you could show us a photograph of theory, now, that would be something.

Every successful photograph I make shows theory. Isn't that the foundation of your defence of the Zone System? The quality of Ansel Adams' work is proof of the theory.
 
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AndreasT

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I would love to see you all in action taking photos. It would be great to see this, it would be a wonderful way to learn from each other. Certainly far better than reading books or writting about it.
There are always situation where one is off from the so called ideal line. By mistake or because one is forced to from the situation. The knowledge or skill should be there to master those situations.
However striving to get it going in the right direction would help in the long run.
Maybe Adams got fed up with all the work in the darkroom that he wanted to perfect his work.
Besides when I see videos of Adams he seems to be a jovial person, so that, well he may let things slip here and there. My sympathetic feeling I get listening to him.
 
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Michael, it's not my proof. In fact, it's a logical fallacy. Did the sarcasm not come across?

I've been review Henry's book over the last few days. When I first read it, I didn't like how he kept referencing popular sources. Now, I think it was a smart move. Instead of simply ignoring them, he disproves their arguments. He does a great job at experimental research. I have a little trouble with some of his exposure and film speed theory and I wish he went into more detail on tone reproduction theory with the four quadrant graph, but you can't expect to agree on everything.
 
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markbarendt

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It is fun and a great learning experience when there is a get together to go shooting, been to a few and well worth doing.

Better than writing? IDK

Good observation on Adams getting fed up. The basic premise of the zone system is to make printing easier.
 

AndreasT

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I myself am a bit, how did Michael put it OCD. Not so much when metering, there I always tend to be in rush. Well with the sun moving. But when testing my materials and making prints. People always tell me not to be so serious in the darkroom and relax.
Too much coffee.
Unfortunately I never really had the oppertuniy to share photo expierences person to person. Not much.
But I enjoy following this discussion.
 

Chuck_P

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Every successful photograph I make shows theory. Isn't that the foundation of your defence of the Zone System? The quality of Ansel Adams' work is proof of the theory.

Putting it in terms of theory is certainly acceptable, but the foundation of my defence of the Zone System lies in learning how valuable (to me) the process of visualization can be. My photographic "craft" is leaps and bounds from what is was, because of the Zone System, and being proficient in the craft of photography is the path to becoming better at visualization, IMHO.
 
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Michael,

I have the second edition. So far, I’ve only been able to review some of Chapter 6: Film and the Making of a Negative, and scan through the rest. Haven’t read this book in more years than I’d like to admit. Still hate the formatting with the dense type, but now I’m even more impressed with the sheer volume of testing and detail.

In order to help keep this from getting too long, I’ll touch on a few points I found interesting. The section on page 137 Geometric Variation in Illumination of the Film in the Camera nicely covers an important topic rarely touched on. He notes that the average light loss at an optical angle of 15 degrees off axis averages around 20% (12 degrees is the value the exposure meter standard utilizes for calculating K and q). Depending on the focal length and f/stop, the fall off can be easily ½ stop with over one stop not uncommon.

While Henry doesn’t touch on it, the first thing that came to my mind was how this information would effect in camera testing with a contacted step tablet. The portion of the step tablet / film where the degree of accuracy is most critical falls towards the outer edge of the image circle where the greatest proportion of light loss occurs.

His summary of the history of film speed determination was good up to the fractional gradient part and most importantly the relationship between the fractional gradient and the current method. I believe he need to flesh out more about the concept of film speed and the reason why the fractional gradient was chosen. Even though Henry references the Nelson and Simmon’s paper that introduced the Delta-X Criterion, which the current ISO speed method is based, he gives the impression that using a fixed density of 0.10 alone has a valid correlation to the fractional gradient method. I don’t know if he just muddled this part or meant to imply the fractional gradient method and it’s principles were abandoned for the fixed density method, but that’s what I’m left with.

One page 142, Henry wonders why in the 1979 speed standard there was a statement in the forward, not considered the official part of the standard, that read, “For any specific developer, the sensitometric speed rating method of this standard includes a 1/3 camera stop underexposure safety factor.” He was rather puzzled at this and stated that “1/3 stop overexposure was built in,” and why wasn’t it in the standard?

I think he’s making more of this than is necessary. Between the fractional gradient standard and the 1960 ASA standard, the safety factor was reduce from around 2.35 to 1.2, as explained in Nelson’s Safety Factors in Camera Exposure, which is one of the two papers where the 1960 ASA speed standard was derived. Henry does talk about the 1.2 (1/3 stop) safety factor on the previous page. I believe the reason it was listed in the forward is because the safety factor is based on the statistically average scene luminance range which isn’t a constant so the point where the shadow falls cannot be consistent and therefore neither can the safety factor, so such a statement couldn’t appear in the body of the standard.

These might seem like minor examples (and they are), but they help evaluate his knowledge of theory (and mine). I haven’t gone through the entire book yet, but there are a number of things I really don’t agree with and yes one of them is his preference for in camera testing, incorrect concept of metered exposure point, using the fixed density method to determine film speeds outside the ISO parameters, and more. Which we can go into in more detail later.
 
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I think this is a good example of my earlier topic. A photographer would more than likely consider the question of accuracy of an in camera step tablet test if they knew of off-axis light fall off.

As for Henry's book, I'm glad there's someone who feels the same way.

With grey vs white card question, I guess there could be a small question of the linearity of the exposure. The materials the cards are made of and how they interact with difference wavelengths, like infrared, and the exposure meter's photo cell can also make a difference; but I don't think there's anything fundamentally different with either as a choice of a testing target.

Otherwise we've already discussed how as a choice of testing targets they shouldn't make a difference. They both represent the only exposure value in the test so there's nothing for them to influence.
 
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Two related items from Henry. On page 184 he states "Kodak actually recommends a safety factor of an overexposure of 1/2 to 1 stop. When measuring exposure from a neutral gray card (18% reflectance, RD 0.745) Kodak recommends increasing the indicated exposure by 1/2 stop." Now I haven't read the two Kodak publications he references, I did notice he doesn't have any of the papers by Connelly in the bibliography. I'm a little surprised that all the effort with exposure meters, he never seems to have worked out the relationship between C and K. Also on page 145 he talks about the 0.10 speed point being 4 stops below Zone V (meter reading).

Maybe this is comes from trying to balance the popular terminology with the scientific information. Maybe he didn't read the papers on exposure. There is a reference to Stimson's An Interpretation of Current Exposure Meter Technology, but not Connelly's Calibration Levels of Films and Exposure Devices which was critical to my understanding of exposure. Maybe exposure theory isn't an interest of Henry's.
 

Bill Burk

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Suppose you dim the light with filters, to rule out the aperture shape/area change that might shape how large the internal reflections are.

So put a clear gelatin filter for the first shot and a 2.1 ND filter for the second shot. That will give two shots that differ only in intensity x time.

Here I believe you would find flare the same in both cases.
 
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