film rebate

[luxikon]

Hi

in his book 'Way Beyond Monochrome' Ralph W. Lambrecht writes on page 132 'The film rebate was ignored, ...'.

My English is not sufficent enough to understand that. What does 'film rebate' mean? Can anybody explain it to me (or even translate into German)?

Thanks
Klaus

 

[Barry S]

The rebate is the area of the negative outside the image area. So, for 35mm film the rebate would include the sprocket holes--the part of the negative without the image.

 

[pesphoto]

awww...from the thread title I thought you found a deal on film........

 

[vdonovan]

Same here. About a year ago Kodak did have a $5 rebate on pro boxes of Tri-X.

 

[reellis67]

I've also heard this called the 'sprocket area' and, more rarely, 'the passe-partout', not to be confused with passepartout, the sad companion of Phileas Fogg...

- Randy

 

[Iwagoshi]

I've also heard this called the 'sprocket area'

- Randy

But 120 & LF does not have sprockets...Thanks for asking the question and the answers, been fumbling around trying to describe this area of the film...and also disappointed that this is not about a film deal.

Terry

 

[ann]

it is still the clear area around the film.

 

[luxikon]

Thanks. I understood!

Klaus

 

[AgX]

luxicon,

I once had the same problem, especially as rebate is not that often used in photographic literature.
The comon german term is "Filmrand" or for perforated film "Perforationsrand".

Denke auch an das Wort "Rabatte", das ein eingefaßtes Beet meint. Ich denke, es bedeutet ursprünglich "Einfassung".

 

[JBrunner]

If you look at my gallery you can see examples of LF rebate on many of my contact prints.

 

[reellis67]

If you look at my gallery you can see examples of LF rebate on many of my contact prints.

Woohoo! J is offering rebates on his prints!

oh...

 

[Mick Fagan]

Klaus, I read carefully that section of Ralph & Chris’s book myself. I just had another read.

The section at the start on page 132 is about paper black density, where you take a blank negative and make density tests to get an effective exposure time for your personal zone 0 with that film and paper/enlarger set-up.

With that blank negative the actual rebate and the negative whole, are one and the same.

Normally a negative has information on it in the area that has been exposed, but the rebate, or edge, has the same exposure as this blank test negative, none.

The text refers to the picture 2a and 2b in the context of the film rebate. 2a was printed using the film rebate/clear negative time, as the correct exposure for a print, this was too dark.

Picture 2b was printed at a different exposure to make the best possible print. To do this, the film rebate (clear part of the film edge) was ignored. The resulting picture is better.

Picture 2c (the final picture in the series) illustrates how the whole lot is better, by rating the film at a different (slower) effective speed.

Ralph Lambrecht comes across as concise, precise and technically careful, in the language used to describe the processes and ways of photography, you have a very good book from which to learn more from.

Rebate in English usually means one of two things. Firstly and usually, it means a discount on a purchase.

Secondly and not that usually, it means a wood working term where you cut a groove or edge in some timber to either mate two pieces of timber or to form a short edge, like the runner on a drawer. The Americans usually refer to this as a, “rabbet”.

I hope this helps a bit.

Mick.


Ps:- I used my Lexicon, as oposed to my Luxikon Good choice of name!

 

[luxikon]

Mick

thanks for your detailed information. I think it helped a lot. So 'film rebate' means in sensitometric terms 'base+fog', right?

Klaus

 

[Mick Fagan]

Klaus, yes that is correct, the sensitometric terminology, 'base+fog'.

That actual section of the book is of great assistance to me in a practical session, when showing someone printing and film exposure and how the two really go together.

I don't actually use Ralph's method, but a more generic way of doing this for people to find their personal paper black, quickly and easily. Once they comprehend this small step fully, I often see the light coming on inside their head. It is a wonderfully simple, but effective lesson.

Mick.

 

[luxikon]

Mick,

you really make me curious. As a beginner I´m learning by testing all the topics of 'Way Beyond...'. If there is a simpler, effective way to determine 'my' paper black, I would like to learn the lesson. Can you teach me?

Klaus