Film quality

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Photo Engineer

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In another thread, I posted a scan of a sheet of LF film with severe banding on it. I did this due to reading several complaints about it on products from 2nd and 3rd tier manufacturers.

First tier manufacturers are Kodak, Fuji and Ilford. You will probably never see defects like this in their products. (I miss Agfa and wish it could still be in this list.) (I include Kentmere as a first tier paper manufacturer.)

Here I go through some common physical defects to look for.

COATING DEFECTS and FILM QUALITY

Banding is quite common on 2nd and 3rd tier products as are small imperfections due to dust, bubbles and undissolved gelatin (assorted grunge).

These serious problems are evident at different magnifications due to their sizes. For example, banding becomes bad in LF and MF while the grunge becomes evident at 35mm, otherwise the defects are somewhat masked by the format or magnification.

Some of their coatings lack sufficient hardener, have imperfections in the support and some have poor, little, or no suitable subbing leading to blisters, scratches and streaks. Along with this, you might observe the emulsion actually lift off the support. Lack of a proper humectant will cause cracks to form after the processed material dries down. The dry gelatin cracks.

As a side note, I would like to add this... As baryta paper production ramps down in favor of RC, getting SW FB is almost impossible, and DW FB is coming in fewer and fewer surfaces. What I have noticed are defects in the baryta itself. This is another problem to be expected. I also suspect that the quality of the raw film support may suffer.

So, as noted elsewhere, those buying cheap or inexpensive products are essentially depriving Ilford, Kodak and Fuji from revenue and are forcing the smaller companies to ramp up production.

Now that last is important. As they ramp up production in a marginal plant, quality goes down. So, you may have a plant that at normal capacity produces 90% acceptable product, but as you force them into overdrive, as it were, due to demand, then the quality will spiral downward.

I don't want to associate any company with any defect as all companies are capable of making very good product. It just seems that these complaints are increasing due to the fact that these factories are aging, the staff is aging, and the facilities are being pushed to the limit.

Therefore, don't judge them too harshly. Their products are good, but they do not meet the standards of the 1st tier companies in overall physical quality. The subject of photographic defects (speed, reciprocity failure, raw stock keeping, fog, curve shape and etc) is a whole other book length topic in itself which I will not address as I see more complaints directed to the physical defects described here.

And, don't forget that many defects are caused in your hands due to the more fragile nature of some of these products which are otherwise good. We cannot forget the human factor. A young student on a limited budget may buy a low priced film, but due to inexperience may mishandle it slightly and get inferior results. This must not be overlooked in your evaluation of the situation.

PE
 
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I don't know much about the technical aspects of film and paper manufacture, I just use the materials.
When I handle sheet film such as Efke/Adox versus an Ilford equivalent, I always always always have problems with scratches on the Adox negs. I have tried emulsion side down and up, I have handled them with the utmost care, but I always somehow end up with scratches. Even with pyro developers which seem to harden the emulsion and a hardening fixer. I may be doing something wrong, but for me the hardened emulsions from Ilford, Kodak, and Agfa have worked really well and painlessly through the few years I've indulged in photography.

With that said, the Efke / Adox emulsions have provided wonderful pictorial results. They've just been a hassle to handle, that's all.

- Thom
 

Paul Howell

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I have used Kodak for almost 40 years, Illford and Agfa as a good second choice. Last month on 2 rolls of Tmax 400 35mm I had the first ever dust embedded in the emulsion of a Kodak product, two rolls of PF4 120 processed at the same time and dired at the same time were clean so I know it is not on my end. But compared to 2nd and 3rd tier folks, this is very minior. I still buy other brands when on sale for just shooting around, but it a crap shoot in terms of QC.
 
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As the Photo Engineer stated

“I also suspect that the quality of the raw film support may suffer.”

Now this is already here as I know for sure that Forte have problem to find a right quality. Also I’m getting same strange bluish stain on Ilford too! Probably those who knows where the right quality is keep this in secret for themselves as this is the only way one can keep the market shares of the time when the analogue market shrinks. I think the hardest is going to be when those first manufacturers close their gates and than we wind up with nothing. Because the all secrets goes with them for the right row film and so on

Observe: a lot of you think I’m a kind of Forte representative but I’m not! I’m a long time user and I have some friends there. That’s why I know a lot about their products.
I’m living in the totally different part of Europe!
I have used Forte along many other products for ages as many of you do and I can clearly see the difference in quality of the products which are in the market today even of those which I thought were a reliable source before. Two of my favorite FB papers disappeared and it’s harder to getting my chemistry for my special needs as the government here asking hudge fees to get a license to use some various chemicals. Some of it I can’t even by even if I tell them that I will leave the spill to the proper central for those chemicals. We have those in this country for all kinds of for the environment hazardous materials. Here you can't dump anything any longer. which is good!

I think this is only the beginning and it’s get worst before its getting better again.

Now I think it’s my turn to show you how difficult is to get a right base for the film and what kind of trouble I’m talking about!

My only concern is that somebody destroys something very important to me in the future!
The picture shows the poor quality of the base it’s damaged with the manufacturing of the row film and it’s not that easy task for a film manufacturer to detect all the failure on the base! It's a blow up of one part on the edge of the 8x10 negative
 
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pentaxuser

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Raises interesting questions such as: At what point in the increasing demand curve does the 2nd or 3rd tier manufacturer make the transition to 1st tier?

Assuming that these companies have a quality control system which works reasonably well at former demand levels, then why can't they maintain it at higher demand? The revenue incentive is there. There are a number of options such as increasing inspection, running for say 24 hrs per day as opposed to 8 or 16 rather than running faster to increase capacity if the latter creates quality problems.

These are not rhetorical questions to which I am about to supply the answer as I don't know the answer. It's just that if price determines demand which in turn determines revenue and completes a virtuous circle to more consistent quality and better products as it has seemed to have done with say Japanese cars from the 1960s to the present day then why shouldn't it work for current 2nd tier paper and film manufacturers?

pentaxuser
 
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Photo Engineer

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Raises interesting questions such as: At what point in the increasing demand curve does the 2nd or 3rd tier manufacturer make the transition to 1st tier?

Assuming that these companies have a quality control system which works reasonably well at former demand levels, then why can't they maintain it at higher demand? The revenue incentive is there. There are a number of options such as increasing inspection, running for say 24 hrs per day as opposed to 8 or 16 rather than running faster to increase capacity if the latter creates quality problems.

These are not rhetorical questions to which I am about to supply the answer as I don't know the answer. It's just that if price determines demand which in turn determines revenue and completes a virtuous circle to more consistent quality and better products as it has seemed to have done with say Japanese cars from the 1960s to the present day then why shouldn't it work for current 2nd tier paper and film manufacturers?

pentaxuser

These are very valid comments. I have no answers either. Just more questions and observations without answers.

The interesting thing about your comparison is that the Japanese invested in new facilities and new methodology to improve quality. IDK what the 2nd and 3rd tier film companies have done, but from some of the descriptions, and some of the pictures sent to me privately by APUGGERS I would suggest that the plants are old and have never been upgraded since WWII.

I think that is at the core of the matter. These plants can't run 24 hours / day without problems, and they can't speed up without having problems. So, either way product suffers in the rush to get things out the door. But IDK for sure.

PE
 

David A. Goldfarb

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There is certainly a tradeoff in consistency and mechanical flaws with the second and third tier manufacturers, but the positive side of the tradeoff isn't just price--it is also the tonal quality of those materials. Personally, for instance, I don't care for the look of Delta 100, HP5+ or TMY, so it doesn't matter how clean and consistent the emulsion is. I do like Efke PL100 and J&C Classic 400, so I do a little more testing and for the most part I've had a good experience with those films. There's nothing on the market that's quite like the paper currently known as J&C Nuance graded, which I've used for a long time under the Cachet Expo RF label, so it's not as if there is a first tier replacement for it.

I like Tri-X and shoot a good deal of it in various formats, so that's a film I don't have to think about as a tradeoff, but it's hard to get in 11x14". Even when Freestyle made a special order of Tri-X 11x14" and I contacted them at least twice about it, they didn't follow through with my order. By the same token, Delta 400 doesn't come in sheet sizes, or I might shoot more of that.
 
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David, you are absolutely correct and I have stated in all of my posts that these manufacturers do make good products, but it takes more care in using them. Your comments are key to why they survive.

I just hope that they continue to improve quality by some means or other.

PE
 

MattKing

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PE (and others with knowledge about these things):

1) Can film base be manufactured by one entity, then coated by another entity that is entirely separate? By this, I mean could one company make the base, and then sell it on the open market to anyone who wishes to coat it?

I would assume there would be issues surrounding shipping and storage, but it may be that one needs to be intimately involved with the manufacture of the base in order to make the emulsions to be coated on it.

2) Would it be possible for an emulsion coating manufacturer with high quality control to "manufacture to specification"? By this I mean could one company make and coat emulsions where the specifications would vary according to customers' requirements.

I am thinking of the automotive industry as an example. The major car manufacturers are really more designers, assemblers, distributors and marketers than manufacturers, in that so much of modern automobiles consists of parts manufactured by others.

Matt
 
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Hopefully modernising and improve quality but not eliminating silver out of the emulsion because according to my knowledge the silver fatigue film is not able to reproduce anything a on the shadow aria and give you a relatively flat look on the highlights. In Scandinavian terms I have two hours during winter time to be out with my camera as there is not enough light. If I have a film which works in difficult light situations right than its got to have silver and a lot’s of it!
 

Roger Hicks

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PE (and others with knowledge about these things):

1) Can film base be manufactured by one entity, then coated by another entity that is entirely separate? By this, I mean could one company make the base, and then sell it on the open market to anyone who wishes to coat it?

I would assume there would be issues surrounding shipping and storage, but it may be that one needs to be intimately involved with the manufacture of the base in order to make the emulsions to be coated on it.

2) Would it be possible for an emulsion coating manufacturer with high quality control to "manufacture to specification"? By this I mean could one company make and coat emulsions where the specifications would vary according to customers' requirements.

Matt

1 -- Yes, and this is increasingly the norm. It is even more the case with paper where Felix Schoeller and Mitsubishi are the only real choices. I took a pic of their stands (which were side by side) at photokina 2006 with the intention of captioning it 'Your Life In Their Hands'.

2 -- Yes, except that (as PE has often pointed out) there's a degree of alchemy in emulsion manufacture: site-specific, time-specific...

Cheers,

R.
 

firecracker

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2 -- Yes, except that (as PE has often pointed out) there's a degree of alchemy in emulsion manufacture: site-specific, time-specific...

Cheers,

R.


So I guess we need a company like Cosina in a sense for film coating, which has cool European names but with the ability to control its quality in various ways from top to bottom.

My only fear is that in Japan, which is not really an open market, we might get no more film when the film giant Fuji would quit doing what it's doing. It's still very rare to see Eastern European and Chinese films in this country, and they are priced as "cheap" films anyway.

I think what's blocking is this stupid corporate protectionism...
 

Lee Shively

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Due to the positive comments concerning tonality, I bought some Efke 25 and Fomapan 100 recently. I finally had a chance to try a couple of 120 rolls of the Efke on Tuesday. I haven't had a chance to print anything yet but the negatives look nice as far as the contrast, tonality, etc. is concerned. However, I seriously doubt I will have a single printable negative out of the two rolls. I take responsibility for the scratches but a quick look at the negatives through a loupe shows random dark spots and a few rather large clear areas. Thankfully, I backshot everything on PanF+ so the day wasn't a loss.

I really wanted this film to work well for me, given the posts I've read here and elsewhere. I doubt I'll feel comfortable shooting it again. I do hope the Foma film has better QC involved.
 

ronlamarsh

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My 2 cents

Just had to jump in on this one:

I agree with Mr Goldfarb, I don't much care for the tonal scales of HP5,delta,TMY etc. Efke is great and the best way to develope to avoid scratches is to use a slosher system. FP4 is great film and I use it when I am flush with a fresh paycheck.
Lately though I have been using the Arista edu ultra films in 4x5 and 5x7.....these are great films(supposed to be foma), I get consistent results with either rodinal or D-23, great tonal scale and no defects to speak of yet. I have seen a couple of examples of banding on the older Arista 400(supposed to be forte) however. Hopefully they will get their quality act together.
For my money at present I use the Arista(foma) films and get an extra half to one stop to boot over FP4.
As an aside: Kodak is a huge company and as such they really cannot be expected to cater to what has become a niche market any more than General Electric can be expected to make a special model toaster and only sell 10,000 a year(I work for general electric). That said instead of bashing kodak for business decisions we need to move on, and support those who are willing to supply our niche market.
 
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A company could come up with a film formula and have it coated by another company. I see two problems though.

1. How do they come up with the formula in the first place. This is a non-trivial operation.

2. How do they scale it? Again, lab coatings rarely match full size coatings and only experience emulsion people know how to make the changeover.

I think that the best example we have of both of these is the M&P re-creation of Azo paper.

PE
 

nworth

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As things settle down with today's sharply lower demands for film, I expect some consolidation among the second and third tier manufacturers. I also expect some limited increase in their fortunes with the departure of such giants as Agfa and the limitation of the offerings by the other first tier manufacturers. This will allow these smaller manufacturers to ramp up quality control and tighten manufacturing standards. Customers will probably demand this, and as long as there is significant competition there will be strong pressure to accomplish it. There is no guarantee this will happen, and it may take a number of years, but we can hope.
 
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