FILM PRICE: COULD A RESURGENCE FORCE A MAJOR DROP?

[trendland]

Just saw a beautiful 60's Camaro SS today, rump, rump, rump said the cam.

Yeah Paul ..so there have been indeed some costs during the 70th you have forgotten!

with regards

PS : What was cheap during the 70th?
3 main thinks 1) energy 2) energy 3) energy....a global problem today!

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Yeah Paul ..so there have been indeed some costs during the 70th you have forgotten!

with regards

PS : What was cheap during the 70th?
3 main thinks 1) energy 2) energy 3) energy....a global problem today!

A lot of things are cheaper today, other things have gone the other direction. Gasoline here in America at $2-3 a gallon is less than when it was 25-30 cents, once you factor in inflation. ("A dollar's worth of regular, please.") Hey, someone else pumped the gas, too! OTOH, things like kerosene and mineral spirits now cost $13-16 dollars a gallon instead of 18 cents! (No road tax.)

My brother and I have commented over the years that it seems that we have a lot less disposable income these days. It so happens I have a box of a few photo things of his, including some receipts from 1977. A 280-S Auto Strobonar, $50. He returned that and bought a Honeywell 480S for $110. Tri-X, 20(!!) exposure rolls, 70 cents. Doing this while he was married and a grad student!

I just looked up the relative CPI for that month in 1977 and last month, February. Exactly 4X. So, a grad student, bro, was buying a flash for $440 in today's dollars. OTOH, that roll of Tri-X would be $2.80 today - presuming you could buy a 20 exposure roll. A 24 exposure roll of TX is now north of $5 if not on sale. As an aside, I bulk load for 36 and 18 exposures.

Oh, that 30 cent gasoline in 1960 equates to $2.56 today.

 

[trendland]

The stuff Lomography palms off as color film for "artists" at $9.00-$10.00 a roll is more expensive than normal film, and they seem to be doing a good business.

I guess Lomo can live confortable from pricing today! Within the last years Lomo had massive
earnings from their business model : Come to cheapest scratchy old film , repack the stuff in "hypster" manner and sell it to people who realy like to have a high priced product - beside
the fact the film is "old/scratchy" .....but faberyman belive me : If you are shooting color
35mm and you want results like this here :

The stuff Lomography palms off as color film for "artists" at $9.00-$10.00 a roll is more expensive than normal film, and they seem to be doing a good business.

Well for such kind of photography I would also buy an expensive one - why not to try Lomo
Films - seams to be real good stuff .....

PS : Lomo has made no single new film - so there is some money Mirko is looking forward for!
Lomo got it out of a market - changing into profits by using old stuff - without
A N Y investment into film manufacturing !
Be patient with Lomo !

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Not all their film is wonky. They are a source of conventional films at good prices. I just bought a three pack of Lomo 110 ISO 200 color neg film for $18.

Even if all their stock was free, they still have to load, create packaging, and distribute. My hat is off to them.

An interesting business story, how crappy Russian cameras became a world wide, if small, empire complete with real stores!

 

[Agulliver]

I believe the film market hit it's bottom a few years ago and is now at least stable and probably will witness modest growth. I know quite a few people who have either gone back to shooting film (after "going digital") or who are trying film for the first time. Just yesterday an acquaintance in his late 30s saw a post on my facebook page about film processing and remarked "I didn't know Kodak were still making film!"....he then did a bit of googling and asked me about Adox and their current B&W films. Another friend in her mid 30s has just this week bought two medium format Yashica TLRs and an Olympus 35mm SLR and a few rolls of Kentmere for the 35mm. Another friend who learned film photography 15 years ago but hadn't shot film in well over a decade (also mid 30s) just bought a brick and half of Fomapan 120 film to add to her stash of 35mm C41 films. She's also acquired "new" film cameras in the last 12 months. Other friends and acquaintances are shooting the occasional roll of either 135 or 120 after years of not doing so.

It seems to me that often these people lived under the belief that film was no longer available. Once they see it is, and see especially the choice we have in B&W film....they're interest is piqued again. Said friend who bought three film cameras in the last week is now looking at developing her film for the first time ever and a film scanner. All good for the manufacturers of film, chemicals and scanners.

If this isn't just my friends, and is repeated elsewhere....there will be a tangible rise in film sales. But profits are currently so marginal that it probably won't mean a reduction in prices. What it might mean, however, is that we all get to enjoy the relatively rich variety of films that we have for a lot longer. As Adox tells us, we need new people to be trained in manufacturing films, papers, chemicals....and some R&D into improved or even new products.

 

[trendland]

Not all their film is wonky. They are a source of conventional films at good prices. I just bought a three pack of Lomo 110 ISO 200 color neg film for $18.

Even if all their stock was free, they still have to load, create packaging, and distribute. My hat is off to them.

An interesting business story, how crappy Russian cameras became a world wide, if small, empire complete with real stores!

Sometimes it is necessary that things are described in an overdriven manner to make it more clear Paul! I am well knowing that "some" films are new but they began with outdated old stuff!
And there is an immense difference between FERRANIA - they realy make new film!

with regards

PS : Here in Berlin / Germany is a district named : " Prenzlauer Berg "btw but there are also some more : middle class businessman (Mirko possible know) are meeting on weekend their friends
sitting in special "hypster caffees" and what do they need ?????
A camera - but it has not to be a modern digital one - oh no !
It HAS TO BE THIS HERE :

I personaly own this model also (thats a good example with nice leather case) but no fear I am not sitting at weekend in Prenzlauer Berg caffes [I don't want to meet there anyone!]
And I am still using 120 films!!!

But this or such cameras are modern upper middleclass or lower upperclass peoples accessoires
a " must have " - OK why not !My camera is also fine (and was cheap) but you will not belive :

WITHOUT FILM !!!

Because they are having it not for use!!!!!

And meanwhile to such cameras a first Lomo is inside (if it was possible [from poor experience]..
to load the camera). - I don't wonder if some spend more money to film !
But I would not trust such people they are away when new IPhone with 50Mp is out!
Sitting in caffee in Pre..., a.s.o.

 

[MattKing]

I'm not sure about BC, but I could get overnight to NY on economy bus and if I return same day it is free ticket.
Over 100$ is free shipping from BH to GTA.

I live minutes away from a border crossing, and can and do have (at a small cost) stuff shipped to a parcel receiving service just across the border.
So I can avoid buying most things in Canada if I so wish.
But I would rather not do so. Or at least not very often.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

I believe the film market hit it's bottom a few years ago and is now at least stable and probably will witness modest growth. I know quite a few people who have either gone back to shooting film (after "going digital") or who are trying film for the first time. Just yesterday an acquaintance in his late 30s saw a post on my facebook page about film processing and remarked "I didn't know Kodak were still making film!"....he then did a bit of googling and asked me about Adox and their current B&W films. Another friend in her mid 30s has just this week bought two medium format Yashica TLRs and an Olympus 35mm SLR and a few rolls of Kentmere for the 35mm. Another friend who learned film photography 15 years ago but hadn't shot film in well over a decade (also mid 30s) just bought a brick and half of Fomapan 120 film to add to her stash of 35mm C41 films. She's also acquired "new" film cameras in the last 12 months. Other friends and acquaintances are shooting the occasional roll of either 135 or 120 after years of not doing so.

It seems to me that often these people lived under the belief that film was no longer available. Once they see it is, and see especially the choice we have in B&W film....they're interest is piqued again. Said friend who bought three film cameras in the last week is now looking at developing her film for the first time ever and a film scanner. All good for the manufacturers of film, chemicals and scanners.

If this isn't just my friends, and is repeated elsewhere....there will be a tangible rise in film sales. But profits are currently so marginal that it probably won't mean a reduction in prices. What it might mean, however, is that we all get to enjoy the relatively rich variety of films that we have for a lot longer. As Adox tells us, we need new people to be trained in manufacturing films, papers, chemicals....and some R&D into improved or even new products.

As noted above, Kodak stock prices are escalating.

Kodak and Alaris know what is happening in the film world. Since people in the biz keep track of sales all over the world, not difficult to put a wet finger in the wind.

The two companies would not have started new lines of old films ; still (Alaris) and movie films (Kodak.)

I was away from Luz, the photo dominatrix for three and a half years. I can't believe how the options have expanded. I got rid of my nice Polaroid bellows cameras when I moved. No film available. Sigh.

 

[trendland]

As noted above, Kodak stock prices are escalating.

Kodak and Alaris know what is happening in the film world. Since people in the biz keep track of sales all over the world, not difficult to put a wet finger in the wind.

The two companies would not have started new lines of old films ; still (Alaris) and movie films (Kodak.)

I was away from Luz, the photo dominatrix for three and a half years. I can't believe how the options have expanded. I got rid of my nice Polaroid bellows cameras when I moved. No film available. Sigh.

Things are often not as it looks like - see :

......!

 

[1kgcoffee]

Mirko (Adox),

I think one of the biggest challenges is distribution. There was a scare a while back with distribution of Ilford films in North America. We need to worry about such things as import duties. Where is the best place to purchase Adox products? Or is it possible to deal directly with Adox so that there are fewer markups before the film hits consumers? I find it's not so easy to locate your films. Same issue with foma. If I buy from B&H anything other than Kodak I am paying import duties for both the united States and Canada - that is if they carry the film.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Things are often not as it looks like - see :
View attachment 220017

......!

Stocks go up, stocks go down. Right now, up.

I wonder what happened in November for that surge? It was when they announced their deal for Kodak clothing with 21 Forever. Or, someone.

Of course, probably another example of proximity in time does not equal causation.

 

[pentaxuser]

I live minutes away from a border crossing, and can and do have (at a small cost) stuff shipped to a parcel receiving service just across the border.
.

Just out of curiosity, Matt. When you collect the goods on the U.S side and effectively import them into Canada are there any taxes to be paid? I am assuming that if there are, this is still cheaper than buying in Canada?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

Just out of curiosity, Matt. When you collect the goods on the U.S side and effectively import them into Canada are there any taxes to be paid? I am assuming that if there are, this is still cheaper than buying in Canada?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Technically, the border officials can charge me any import duties that might be due, plus the provincial and federal sales taxes (which total together to 12%) on the value plus that duty. Items that originate (i.e. are manufactured) in Canada, the US or Mexico (such as most Kodak products) should be free from duty, but items originating from the UK (such as Ilford) usually attract some duty.
I always declare everything I import. I haven't had to pay anything for years - they listen to my declaration and then waive me through at the booth.
If I was importing for commercial, rather than personal use, I would almost invariably have to both complete detailed documentation and pay the required funds.
I try to keep the amounts reasonably low, but $100.00 and more doesn't seem to result in referral and collection.
Some items are dealt with differently. Although they now seem to be allowing small quantities of wine and beer through without payment, the taxes, duties, excise taxes and excise duties on wine, as an example, can be huge.
For example, my wife and I discovered a very tasty bottle of wine recently that is retail priced at $3.99 USD plus Washington State tax. After including that tax and converting the result to Canadian dollars, that works out to about $6.00 CDN. If I were to import that $6.00 bottle of wine, my calculations indicate I would have to pay a further $7.09 CDN at the border.
All of those taxes and distribution costs are far more important to my final, landed costs than the cost of manufacture.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

Mirko (Adox),

I think one of the biggest challenges is distribution. There was a scare a while back with distribution of Ilford films in North America. We need to worry about such things as import duties. Where is the best place to purchase Adox products? Or is it possible to deal directly with Adox so that there are fewer markups before the film hits consumers? I find it's not so easy to locate your films. Same issue with foma. If I buy from B&H anything other than Kodak I am paying import duties for both the united States and Canada - that is if they carry the film.

Anyone can always buy direct if he cannot source the product locally. That´s ofcourse the best scenario for us and we try hard to keep shpping rates low for worldwide sales. Some people do not know that fotoimpex is not only the distributor but also the owner and financiér of ADOX. So whatever you buy from Fotoimpex, helps ADOX to go on ;-)

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks for the very full explanation, Matt

pentaxuser

 

[Adrian Bacon]

How much of a film camera resurgence would it take for there to be a MAJOR drop in film (and paper) prices? I know that it would happen because of supply and demand, but how much of a renewed interest will manifest I do not know. (Whether such a resurgence is likely is another question, another thought.)

Already, color paper prices are in line with prices of yesteryear, if one adjusts for constant dollars. However film, especially B&W, is still very high.

There will be those of you who say this question is balderdash, irrelevant, inane, insane, or worse; but there are those reading this who feel that bringing up this fact to ponder is highly appropriate. - David Lyga

I very much doubt that the cost of film and paper will go down by any significant amount. You might see a slight decrease, but the market would have to experience a pretty dramatic volume increase in order to have a big impact.

Let’s not forget, the vast majority of film shooters do not develop and print/scan their own film, so the cost of a roll of film is only a small part of the total cost to shoot that roll of film and get your pictures back. Spend ~$5 plus tax and shipping to get the roll, shoot it, spend ~$5 to put it in a padded mailer and mail it to a lab, who will charge anywhere from $5 to $30 depending on what you asked for, then usually charge you ~$5 to sleeve and ship your film back to you. For the average film shooter, the cost of a roll of film is not the expensive part.

 

[David Lyga]

For the average film shooter, the cost of a roll of film is not the expensive part.

Ahh!, but for the darkroom enthusiast, it IS the expensive part, especially if you use diluted Dektol (1 + 9 or more) for film development. After all, this forum is NOT the 'geek forum' which knows ONLY about computers and digital!!! - David Lyga

 

[trendland]

this forum is NOT the 'geek forum' which knows ONLY about computers and digital!!! - David Lyga

He he he David... ?

with regards


PS : For the speculative case D.T. would post here - I would not blame him!
PPS : But I guess he have no idea how to load a camera! But who knows - perhaps it would help
if he has a darkroom!

 

[trendland]

I very much doubt that the cost of film and paper will go down by any significant amount. You might see a slight decrease, but the market would have to experience a pretty dramatic volume increase in order to have a big impact.

Let’s not forget, the vast majority of film shooters do not develop and print/scan their own film, so the cost of a roll of film is only a small part of the total cost to shoot that roll of film and get your pictures back. Spend ~$5 plus tax and shipping to get the roll, shoot it, spend ~$5 to put it in a padded mailer and mail it to a lab, who will charge anywhere from $5 to $30 depending on what you asked for, then usually charge you ~$5 to sleeve and ship your film back to you. For the average film shooter, the cost of a roll of film is not the expensive part.

Pricing of films is mich too relative for having a general answer in regard of cheap vor extensive!
If a newbee is exited about film and is shooting 4rolls a monts from this here :

He will state for sure : That is not expensive ! And he is right compared with pricing between
1987 - 1998 (inflation is compensated!)....
He will also state if his father will tell him pricing between 2001 - 2006 (~70cent)! But both he C A N
not know (in normal/often case) so there is a difference between the younger generation!
(they feel confortable with higher priced films in general)
Now looking in this here :

just without knowing of pricing during the past the same group would state :
"Puhh - that's too expensive ...but what is it - is it R E A L Y just to 20 exposures????
can't belive!"

with regards

PS : Do you remember :

?

 

[David Lyga]

He he he David... ?

with regards


PS : For the speculative case D.T. would post here - I would not blame him!
PPS : But I guess he have no idea how to load a camera! But who knows - perhaps it would help
if he has a darkroom!

trendland, if you had to, only YOU could come up with the SINGLE, DEFINITIVE emoji to represent David Lyga. I wonder if you had to do this, what emoji would you choose? (NOTE: I do NOT mind insults!!!!)

And, by the way, the decade representing the 70s is spelled that way, NOT 70th!!!!!

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Ahh!, but for the darkroom enthusiast, it IS the expensive part, especially if you use diluted Dektol (1 + 9 or more) for film development. After all, this forum is NOT the 'geek forum' which knows ONLY about computers and digital!!! - David Lyga

No argument from me there, however the darkroom enthusiast is a pretty small subset who is actually shooting film.

 

[trendland]

trendland, if you had to, only YOU could come up with the SINGLE, DEFINITIVE emoji to represent David Lyga. I wonder if you had to do this, what emoji would you choose? (NOTE: I do NOT mind insults!!!!)

And, by the way, the decade representing the 70s is spelled that way, NOT 70th!!!!!

...hmm I've no idea about an individual emoji for you David!
But to be faire - this is the right moment to state : I am not here to give expert tips (some others have already come to my senses).
I am here because this is my english course......!

(Lesson 241 : 80s 90s but 21th century) = 5-

with regards

 

[David Lyga]

Danke, trendland, and this is why I am correcting you. By the way, it is spelled 'fair' without the 'e'. But be certain to capitalize 'English'. - David Lyga

 

[BrianShaw]

LOL, David.

 

[trendland]

No argument from me there, however the darkroom enthusiast is a pretty small subset who is actually shooting film.

From my point it isn't so much a question of expensive or inexpensive!
We all HAVE the money to spent (gues David is one of us with the highest amount on the bank statement ...but he will not state ....what is indeed always smart...)
So it is more a question of more expensive or a question of relative increasement!
And I realy can't remember a period of such extreme increasements ever! Concerning film and all what have to do with film! I can't remember increasements (notice Fuji for example of 30 ,35% and this possible several times within one year????)
There is no historical comparison (including the oil crisis during the 70s) where people were willing to spent so much more within such a relative short time!
OK - perhaps the silver speculation of the hunt brothers :

And the idea today is : " Darkroom enthusiasts are willing to pay each price " ?????....damned because I previously said that we are in a position to do so...!

ähmm sorry David.....that wasn't smart! D A M N E D...

with regards

PS : Manufacturers always have fine ideas to state why a product have to be more expensive -
the question is what is realy true?
The market is regulating excessive fluctuations. But with films there is no real market because of just a handfull players!