Film Inserts Sit at Angle (Not Flat) in Plate Holder

rknewcomb · Jan 18, 2021

I have a question about these film inserts - please see pictures below.
I bought these film inserts from the
Is this a "correct" design for film inserts for single sided European 9x12 plate holders?
The insert seems to not sit flat in the plate holder - The thickness of the metal insert that wraps around the edge of the film does seem to make the film lay at an angle.
Pictures below show the holder with a glass plate, the new insert, the insert sitting in the plate holder.

Doesn't it seem like any film insert that has a thickness along one short side (rolled edge for holding film) and does not have that thickness on the opposite short side edge would create an uneven film plane?

Thanks,
Robert

Insert not laying flat

Glass plate sits flat

New Film insert from Retro Photo Supply place in Poland

Insert in glass plate holder looks good in general but...

closer look at left end where insert slides under

not laying flat. Is this normal for inserts?

Donald Qualls · Jan 18, 2021

In the upper right of the first photo, the retaining clip is under the rolled edge of the film sheath. It should be over, but the fact it can go under is the problem. You have the sheath in backward.

Flip it end for end, keeping the open side up, and it'll be level. You'll have to load the film into the sheaths, then load the sheaths into the plate holder, with this orientation -- but this is the way I've always done it for my Zeiss Ideal, which has similar retaining clips.

rknewcomb · Jan 18, 2021

Hi,
Thanks for that good help. I have a few different "brands" of plate holders which use a few different methods of retaining the glass on the light trap end. Some have siding tabs, some flipping tabs etc. I just tried a few the way that you suggested and most seem to work. It will be a good thing if I shoot only ortho materials so I can load under a safe light because getting everything lined up and under tabs/flap on old somewhat reluctant plate holders may require that I can see.

One other question, do film inserts have a good reputation for putting the insert with film in the same focal plane that the glass plate would have been? With your help the insert now seems to be sitting flat, but it also seems by the design that the film is not exactly in the same focal plane as the glass plate would have been - the film being a little lower in the holder due to the top of the rolled edge now occupying where the glass surface use to.

Thank you for your help!
Robert

Ron (Netherlands) · Jan 19, 2021

rknewcomb said:
One other question, do film inserts have a good reputation for putting the insert with film in the same focal plane that the glass plate would have been? With your help the insert now seems to be sitting flat, but it also seems by the design that the film is not exactly in the same focal plane as the glass plate would have been - the film being a little lower in the holder due to the top of the rolled edge now occupying where the glass surface use to.

Indeed, there are small differences - the differences may appear mainly if you make photo's on close distances. Therefore you will have to realign you ground glass - I've seen some ground glasses were small pieces of paper were put between its holder and the glass to compensate for the difference - a little trial and error.

Donald Qualls · Jan 19, 2021

I've also seen plate cameras with two-position focusing scales -- one setting for glass plate, the other (most of a millimeter toward the film plane) for film in a sheath. Useful for when you can't use the ground glass for some reason (shooting hand held, for instance). If you're shooting nothing but film, on the other hand, it might make sense to shim the ground glass as @Ron (Netherlands) suggested.

One option for being able to load under safelight is to buy X-ray film and cut it to correct size. It's either blue-sensitive or blue-green (effectively orthochromatic), and both versions can be handles under red safelight (after a suitable fogging test). This is also a lot cheaper than sheet film, and lets you feed a camera in an obsolete size (like quarter plate, for instance, with at most one emulsion available, or postcard, with no available film other than ordering in the annual Ilford ULF special cutting). You could do the same with Ortho 80 or one of the 2-3 brands of Ortho Lith sheet films, but X-ray is a good bit cheaper...

JPD · Jan 19, 2021

The side of the film sheath with the cutout should be the up side. You could cut the corners of the folded parts at the bottom so they will fit in these holders. Look at these film sheaths from ORWO. They would fit perfectly in your holders due to how the corners are cut:

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/...Filmfabrik-Wolfen-ORWO-Filmhalter-9x12-so.jpg

JPD · Jan 19, 2021

This is how how the film sheath would ideally sit in these holders. (Blue = the clips and corners of the plate holder.) Then the film will sit flat and parallell to the lens, just like a plate would.

Donald Qualls · Jan 19, 2021

I've got a dozen plate holders for my Ideal cameras (9x12) and had three with my Patent Etui (traded away around 2006). I've never seen one with those gaps in the corners of the closed end. I agree, such a sheath would work as desired, and put the film at the original emulsion plane of a plate -- but from my experience, they don't exist.

JPD · Jan 19, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
I've got a dozen plate holders for my Ideal cameras (9x12) and had three with my Patent Etui (traded away around 2006). I've never seen one with those gaps in the corners of the closed end. I agree, such a sheath would work as desired, and put the film at the original emulsion plane of a plate -- but from my experience, they don't exist.

They are common here in Europe. My AGFA film sheaths from before the war (When AGFA was part of I.G. Farben) and later ORWO ones are all like this.

I got a couple of american KODAK holders, and unbranded ones, that have a pressure plate and hinged frame, so you can use both plates and sheet film. You release the clips holding the frame and it springs open, and then you load the plate or film and close it. But the focal plane is slanted, so they are unusable both for plates and film. And there is no way to fix them. They were made that way.

rknewcomb · Jan 19, 2021

JPD said:
The side of the film sheath with the cutout should be the up side. You could cut the corners of the folded parts at the bottom so they will fit in these holders. Look at these film sheaths from ORWO. They would fit perfectly in your holders due to how the corners are cut:

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/...Filmfabrik-Wolfen-ORWO-Filmhalter-9x12-so.jpg

Hi,
I agree that this design with no corners would be the best and put the film in the same plane as a glass plate would have been.
I do have a jeweler's saw so I could cut the corners like the ones that are linked to above and the diagram. A jeweler's saw is an extremely fine metal cutting saw with a wire like cutting blade.

I very much appreciate all the helpful information from you all.
Robert

paolod · Jan 19, 2021

JPD said:
They are common here in Europe. My AGFA film sheaths from before the war (When AGFA was part of I.G. Farben) and later ORWO ones are all like this.

I got a couple of american KODAK holders, and unbranded ones, that have a pressure plate and hinged frame, so you can use both plates and sheet film. You release the clips holding the frame and it springs open, and then you load the plate or film and close it. But the focal plane is slanted, so they are unusable both for plates and film. And there is no way to fix them. They were made that way.

I use those Kodak holders with film in a few different sizes. As far as I can tell the focal plane is not slanted for the 6.5x9cm and 2 1/4 x 3 1/4" sizes. But I just checked the 9x12cm one and it does look slightly slanted, like the hinge side is lower than the clip side. Were yours also tilted in that direction?
Probably I never noticed anything out of focus because I almost always shoot the 9x12cm at f16 or less.

Ron (Netherlands) · Jan 19, 2021

saw these somewhere on the web. The first sheat seems to have slightly truncated corners....
I guess this is done to get the film in an easy manner out of the sheat

rknewcomb · Jan 19, 2021

I don't know that there is any such thing, but the perfect film insert would have no rolled edge on the short sides - letting the upward pressure from the plate holder springs press the film up against the same area where the glass plate would have pressed. I may try cutting off the rolled edge on the short side of one insert to see if I can make it work. Or, just shoot at f16 all the time.
My holders have no hinge, see pictures at top of the thread.
Robert

JPD · Jan 19, 2021

rknewcomb said:
Hi,
I agree that this design with no corners would be the best and put the film in the same plane as a glass plate would have been.
I do have a jeweler's saw so I could cut the corners like the ones that are linked to above and the diagram. A jeweler's saw is an extremely fine metal cutting saw with a wire like cutting blade.

That could work, or cutting with a good pair of sharp pliers.

paolod said:
I use those Kodak holders with film in a few different sizes. As far as I can tell the focal plane is not slanted for the 6.5x9cm and 2 1/4 x 3 1/4" sizes. But I just checked the 9x12cm one and it does look slightly slanted, like the hinge side is lower than the clip side. Were yours also tilted in that direction?
Probably I never noticed anything out of focus because I almost always shoot the 9x12cm at f16 or less.

I have those in both 9x12 and 6,5x9, KODAK and unnamed. I don't have them here, but if I remember correctly they are slanted from the hinged side down to the clip side. I tried the Kodak ones with my 6,5x9 Bergheil and the slanted focus was very noticeable. Yes, with larger formats and small apertures it would be less noticeable.

paolod · Jan 19, 2021

JPD said:
That could work, or cutting with a good pair of sharp pliers.

I have those in both 9x12 and 6,5x9, KODAK and unnamed. I don't have them here, but if I remember correctly they are slanted from the hinged side down to the clip side. I tried the Kodak ones with my 6,5x9 Bergheil and the slanted focus was very noticeable. Yes, with larger formats and small apertures it would be less noticeable.

With the smaller Kodak holders, the pressure plate can slide back and forth on the springs by a small amount. If it's not exactly centered, sometimes one edge of the frame will catch one edge of the film / pressure plate and push it down. When I load one I check all four corners with my thumbs to make sure the film is flush with the frame, and if it isn't I open it back up and try to re-center the pressure plate.

Film Inserts Sit at Angle (Not Flat) in Plate Holder

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