Film from Italy -- Ferrania starting production 2014

[Xmas]

Trix at the same price as HP5+?

View attachment 96797

I'd prefer HP5+, thanks.

Sigh but it is not me or thee it is the other people who are not going to buy it cause it is 2.0 x the market rate.
I've not recovered from HP3 going.

 

[RattyMouse]

Your second and third paragraphs are remarkably descriptive of the current situation. Right?

I was speculating on your ideas, not describing.

EDIT: The sun is rising here in China as I type and I'm photographing the gorgeous sky with my second roll of TMAX 400. Go KODAK!

 

[RattyMouse]

But, note that there is no strong reason to invest in more R&D when they currently have the most advanced C41 and B&W films on the market.

You could have said the same thing before Portra and Ektar were released.

 

[Nzoomed]

You could have said the same thing before Portra and Ektar were released.

I wouldnt go as far to say that Kodak has released any new films recently, more of an upgrade i suppose.
Yet kodak made a big deal that they had released some brand new films after Kodachrome was discontinued, but really all they had done was upgrade Ektar and Portra.

I really dont know how much R&D staff they even have nowdays, let alone if they even have a research facility anymore with a research coater similar to what Film Ferrania holds.

Anyway, back to the subject of Ferrania, i think its safe to say that they will introduce a C41 film next year if the launch with the E6 product goes well, since their Solaris film was actually the last film that Ferrania ever produced right up to 2010.

I cant find any bad reviews about the film either, obviously it cant be compared to Ektar or Portra, but i dont think you could fault the stuff.

Does anyone know if Ferrania plan on producing photographic paper?
IDK if they even were making the stuff leading up to closure.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

I really dont know how much R&D staff they even have nowdays, let alone if they even have a research facility anymore with a research coater similar to what Film Ferrania holds.

Let's see - it seems to me that the total Ferrania R&D (and production) staff is under 24 people. Kodak had several hundred people doing R&D on films. It's completely unrealistic to expect Ferrania to be able to produce a wide variety of products.

 

[Xmas]

I wouldnt go as far to say that Kodak has released any new films recently, more of an upgrade i suppose.
Yet kodak made a big deal that they had released some brand new films after Kodachrome was discontinued, but really all they had done was upgrade Ektar and Portra.

I really dont know how much R&D staff they even have nowdays, let alone if they even have a research facility anymore with a research coater similar to what Film Ferrania holds.

Anyway, back to the subject of Ferrania, i think its safe to say that they will introduce a C41 film next year if the launch with the E6 product goes well, since their Solaris film was actually the last film that Ferrania ever produced right up to 2010.

I cant find any bad reviews about the film either, obviously it cant be compared to Ektar or Portra, but i dont think you could fault the stuff.

Does anyone know if Ferrania plan on producing photographic paper?
IDK if they even were making the stuff leading up to closure.

After Kodak and Fuji stop you won't need to compare it.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Let's see - it seems to me that the total Ferrania R&D (and production) staff is under 24 people. Kodak had several hundred people doing R&D on films. It's completely unrealistic to expect Ferrania to be able to produce a wide variety of products.

How many film product R&D staff members does Kodak have currently? How big is their current film R&D budget? What new film products are they currently working on?

Ken

 

[Nzoomed]

Let's see - it seems to me that the total Ferrania R&D (and production) staff is under 24 people. Kodak had several hundred people doing R&D on films. It's completely unrealistic to expect Ferrania to be able to produce a wide variety of products.

If they can produce an E6 film, they sure can produce C41 and B&W films without issues, remember that Ferrania have stated that they intend on re-employing the old workers as they see fit when the business grows.
Anyway Ferranias operations are going to be much more smaller than Kodaks, and i doubt that Ferrania ever employed as many people in R&D that Kodak did.
They have the formulas and a legacy of R&D recorded, so its only a matter of using the skilled people to bring these back to life, i dont think its a big ask for them to produce an E6, C41 and B&W product at all with their current infrastructure.

Anyway, ive just learned that Adox still produces C41 films, and its exactly the sort of film im after!
See http://www.adox.de/Photo/?page_id=2101#!
Its made basically to replicate the early colour negative films of the 70's which had very low colour saturation.
Its a little on the grainy side for me, but everything else im happy with, i cant wait to shoot some of this and hope to get some soon. They seriously need to make it in 126 format, it would sell like hot cakes.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

How many film product R&D staff members does Kodak have currently? How big is their current film R&D budget? What new film products are they currently working on?

My point being it TOOK a large R&D staff to produce a wide variety of film offerings at EK (notice the use of the past tense). Ferrania doesn't have those resources and must, of necessity, limit their product offerings.

 

[flavio81]

Let's see - it seems to me that the total Ferrania R&D (and production) staff is under 24 people. Kodak had several hundred people doing R&D on films. It's completely unrealistic to expect Ferrania to be able to produce a wide variety of products.

Yes, but they (Ferrania) already have a lot of proven formulas they can manufacture again:

Solaris 100, 200, 400, and 800
ScotchChrome 100, pushable 400, 1000, 640T

and probably others

 

[Roger Cole]

Its not really too much of an issue for me what formats they have, ive only got a box brownie which shoots 620, thats easy enough to trim the plastic spools down with nail clippers. I dont get what the point was in making 120 film with a slightly wider spool than 620 film! lol
Anyway, film ferrania have made the point that they want to introduce other formats and claim they have possibly the only 127 packaging machine left, although im sure ive seen somewhere a place selling 127 B/W film, so IDK, but they will obviously conduct a survey when the time arrives to find out what formats are in the highest demand, its safe to say they will introduce 126 film again.

The point was for Kodak, who AFAIK made the only 620 cameras, to lock you into using only Kodak film.

 

[flavio81]

You could have said the same thing before Portra and Ektar were released.

Yes, but in those times, there was the incentive to keep up to date facing the competition from Fuji. Since Fuji is not releasing any new stuff in C41 or B/W, there is no incentive for Kodak to improve on the current Portra and Ektar line.

 

[Roger Cole]

KA could market trix bulk at same price as HP5+ bulk otherwise there is no point in speaking to me cause Im not buying.
Ok im buying Kentmere bulk so they are stuck.
But this is deja vu all over again as they let Fuji into their markets by being greedy 75-85.
And they realised this then as well.
Same old horses same old glue

Fair enough point for everyone who still bulk loads. I abandoned it as way too much PITA factor, not to mention not saving that much even with Ilford film. These days I shoot very little 35mm black and white - mainly 35mm is for slides for projection as I have medium and large format cameras which I turn to for most black and white or color print use anyway. I do shoot TMZ/Delta 3200 in 35mm when I need faster lenses than my M645 has (or I have for it - don't have the 80 1.9 yet) and occasionally Portra 800 under the same circumstances.

I understand that for someone who shoots a lot of 35mm black and white it could be attractive to bulk load if the price were a real savings which it is for some brands and not for Kodak.

 

[MattKing]

Yes, but in those times, there was the incentive to keep up to date facing the competition from Fuji. Since Fuji is not releasing any new stuff in C41 or B/W, there is no incentive for Kodak to improve on the current Portra and Ektar line.

The competition wasn't the reason that it made sense to improve the product.

The large and profitable and growing competitive market (and the possible profits to be earned there) was the reason that it made sense to improve the product.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

Ferrania has a lot of formulas they can manufacture again:

Making films - especially high quality color films, is NOT LIKE BAKING A CAKE!!! Having a 'recipe' {formula) is only a very basic starting point. EVERYTHING - the mixers, chemicals, coating head,. dryers, etc, etc ALL have a major effect on the final product. Some of the ingredients needed may not even be available at this point.


"A formula and $2 will get you a cup of coffee"

 

[Nzoomed]

Making films - especially high quality color films, is NOT LIKE BAKING A CAKE!!! Having a 'recipe' {formula) is only a very basic starting point. EVERYTHING - the mixers, chemicals, coating head,. dryers, etc, etc ALL have a major effect on the final product. Some of the ingredients needed may not even be available at this point.


"A formula and $2 will get you a cup of coffee"

I can only see the supply of chemicals being the main issue, they claim they already have a large stock of chemicals on hand, since Solaris was their last film produced and Scotchchrome was the last E6 film they made, its safe to say they must have enough chemicals on hand to make some E6 and C41 film, although i dont know what chemicals can be shared for making both types of colour film, maybe they only have enough chemicals to make E6 at this stage, but i dont think it would be too difficult for them to get C41 off the ground.
Hopefully their stock of chemicals will see them through until they can get the gear up and running from the old chemical lab.
If they have success with the E6 film stock, they wont have any issues with getting solaris back up and running.
And B&W film is a walk in the park for them compared to colour films.
They have the skilled people on hand who used and know their equipment/machinery better than anyone else, im sure they will be able to achieve what they intend to accomplish.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Making films - especially high quality color films, is NOT LIKE BAKING A CAKE!!! Having a 'recipe' {formula) is only a very basic starting point. EVERYTHING - the mixers, chemicals, coating head,. dryers, etc, etc ALL have a major effect on the final product. Some of the ingredients needed may not even be available at this point.


"A formula and $2 will get you a cup of coffee"

Betcha' the Ferrania guys already knew that way before they started this adventure...



Ken

 

[Prof_Pixel]

They have the skilled people on hand who used and know their equipment/machinery better than anyone else, im sure they will be able to achieve what they intend to accomplish.

... and no job is impossible to someone who doesn't have to do it.

Making quality emulsions is FAR from easy.

 

[Nzoomed]

... and no job is impossible to someone who doesn't have to do it.

Making quality emulsions is FAR from easy.

Im not saying its going to be easy, but im being optimistic here, and so should everyone who has helped fund the kickstarter.
I have faith that these guys can pull it off, and so do alot who are in the film industry.
They will get there, it could be a good 12 months before they put a new film on the market though.
I expect they will be concentrating on E6 first and establishing a solid production of that product, then they will turn to C41 and then B&W.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

Betcha' the Ferrania guys already knew that way before they started this adventure...

I'll bet they did too! It's some of the folks here on APUG I worry about.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Let us assume that an old formula, as mentioned by Ferrania themselves, used methyl mercuric iodide or cadmium nitrate. Both possible in products made in Europe (AFAIK at the time), but forbidden in the US. Today, they are forbidden in Europe and the US. This makes manufacture of the product impossible and the sale of a product containing them impossible.

There are grandfathered products that were made by companies that went out of business, that used banned chemicals and are allowed to be sold but not made (again AFAIK).

These are fairy tales made up to show real chemicals in an unreal situation. The fact is that whatever chemicals were used in Ferrania / Scotch products are no longer available or manufactured for one reason or another. So, here is the premise - make a cake with no flour! Too hard, I'll give you the flour and take away the eggs! If you can't do this in 30 mins, you are chopped!

Simple as that. You have to make a product missing a critical ingredient and you have to find a substitute. I hope they do at Ferrania or the product may be quite a bit more like TIP products that we would like.

Now, as for Ektar. Someone earlier said that Ektar was improved - no, it was re-invented using new emulsion and coupler technology and was more akin to the ECN MP negative stock than to any previous C41 product. It now uses a mixed t-grain and cubic grain emulsion. The latter is familiar to my old standby "gencube" with which I have had a lot of experience. Gencube was under development in R&D by an associate many years ago and I was made familiar with it. It did wonders for ECN and now is making Ektar a hit. Add to that, new couplers for improved dark and light keeping and you have a film that no one can touch until the patents expire.

PE

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

[video=youtube_share;FTZAx7K-5ok]http://youtu.be/FTZAx7K-5ok[/video]

 

[ME Super]

The point was for Kodak, who AFAIK made the only 620 cameras, to lock you into using only Kodak film.

My Imperial Debonair uses 620 film. Don't know if it's a rebadge or not, but it doesn't say Kodak anywhere on it. It was manufactured for the Herbert George Company of Chicago, Illinois.

 

[RattyMouse]

Virtually everyone who works in the chemical industry has had to keep their eye on governmental regulations as the restrictions get more and more comprehensive as time goes on. I have had to reformulate products many times to remove chemicals almost certain to be banned or at least cause nasty warning labels on drums.

Substitutes will be found, or if not, new products developed to replace the product lost due to regulation.

This goes on in industry every day.

 

[cmacd123]

... and no job is impossible to someone who doesn't have to do it.

Making quality emulsions is FAR from easy.

Absolutely, that is why photographers are extremely lucky that there are some very smart folks who do know how....

the dudes that are shown with the folded arms and the Lab Coats (some of which still say "3M") in the main photo on the FILMferrania site do LOOK like like they are used to pulling off such miraculous achievements. I would guess that new offerings will be a slow process, and we should expect to see them work on the E-6 family first, if only because there is less competition in that space with EK and KA out of the game.

Black and white, while requiring less effort is likely to be the last thing they attempt as the founders have stated that they admire Ilford and they want to grow the film ecosystem.

Getting exotic film sizes in production may also be a lesser priority, although they have to ACT NOW to triage the machinery they need before the main factory is turned into scrap. The comments about building the ecosystem may also portend the provision of products and services to their competitors, which could mean for example packaging film for other companies down the road. If you read ADOX.DE postings with a fine tooth comb, you will find mention of having manufacturing steps done by the OLD ferrania, on a rush basis before the plant was shut down.

Anyway, I am not expecting a C-41 film to outdo EKTAR. I would expect if all goes well some of the scotch chrome family to reemerge.