Film Development

reub2000 · Dec 18, 2006

Rodinal seems to be a popular developer, so I think I'll order it and see if it's really similar to HC-110.

Roger Hicks · Dec 18, 2006

reub2000 said:
Rodinal seems to be a popular developer, so I think I'll order it and see if it's really similar to HC-110.

Not really. Low speed and big grain are the real disadvantages of Rodinal with most films. But many will put up with this in return for the tonality.

Meanwhile, another vote for Hewes. A few others may be as good. None is better. It's not just the easy 'grip' on the end of the film: it's the fact that you have to drop them a lot further in order to damage them.

Cheers,

R. (www.rogerandfrances.com)

Konical · Dec 18, 2006

Good Morning, Reub2000,

Skip the 8-oz tank and get a second Hewes reel instead. Incidentally, I've seen some excellent E-Bay buys on tanks and reels (including Hewes and Kinderman) in recent months.

Konical

reub2000 · Dec 18, 2006

Konical said:
Good Morning, Reub2000,

Skip the 8-oz tank and get a second Hewes reel instead. Incidentally, I've seen some excellent E-Bay buys on tanks and reels (including Hewes and Kinderman) in recent months.

Konical

I have 2 reels, an 8oz and 16 tanks in the cart.

Monophoto · Dec 18, 2006

Reub -

Yes, Hewes reels are better, but - - -

loading stainless steel reels is an acquired skill - it takes practice, and with practice stainless reels work very well. And with practice, any reel "in good condition" will work just fine. The key phrase is "in good condition". The key is that the faces of the reel must be absolutely parallel, and also at a perfect right angle to the core. Dropping a reel on the darkroom floor is likely going to cause it to be distorted; drop it enough times, and it will be unuseable even though the distortion may not be be obvious.

What this really says is:

1. Buy whatever reels you want. Hewes are better than the others.
2. Don't drop them!
3. Be very careful about buying used reels, or reels on clearance sales. If the reel is not in its original box, or if the box is damaged, inspect it VERY carefully for damage.

Some people prefer the "walk-in" style plastic reels. That's fine - they make Fords and Chevy's so folks can have a choice.

I prefer center-loading reels like stainless steel. However, I have a couple of very old "Durst Macrolon" reels that load just like stainless, and are physically interchangeable with stainless in both plastic and stainless tanks, that I think are easier to load.

The principle problem in loading a center load reel is when the film slips out of the groove and gets into an adjacent groove. Stainless steel reels are made from wire that has a round cross-section - that means that the grooves in the reel that the film fits into have curved edges that make it easier for the film to slip out of one groove and into its neighbor. On the Durst reels, the plastic barriers between grooves have a square cross section, and the perpendicular groove wall helps prevent cross threading the film.

I use HC110, using twice the recommended amount of water to make the stock solution. That is, Kodak says that the 16 oz bottle makes 64 ounces of stock - I make a gallon. Then, when mixing working solution B for roll film, I use twice the recommended amount of stock solution.

I mix the stock solution in a one gallon glass wine bottle, and then decant to one quart green glass lemon juice concentrate bottles for storage.

Gerald Koch · Dec 18, 2006

The only time That I have had a problem with loading a SS reel is when the reel has been damaged. usually by being dropped. The sides may no longer be parallel or the reel is skewed in some fashion. It's best just to discard such reels.

Other than that I have no problems with SS whether the reels be cheap or expensive.

MattKing · Dec 18, 2006

Ole said:
"Film Cartridge Opener" - That's a fancy name for a bottle cap opener. You don't need it. You don't even need to open the cartridges, just cut the film at the end. If you do need to open the cartridge; use a bottle opener, or slam the "sticking-out" end of the pool HARD down on a flat surface. The other end flies off, and the cartridge is open!

Four comments about the "slam HARD" approach:

1) the cap that flies off, can really fly! Make sure your arm is extended so the cap doesn't hit your eye!
2) make sure that the surface you hit is sturdy, and there isn't something on it that could fall off as a result of vibration and be damaged. Also, try to hit it just with the spool, and not with the side of your hand too (ouch);
3) this can be noisy, so if you are in an apartment, with neighbours close by...; and
4) some film cassette caps come off easier than others. In my experience, Kodak ones are the toughest (but its been a while since I processed a number of different brands of pre-loads).

Personally, I prefer using a bottle opener.

On the developer question, I'd suggest you pick one and get used to it. I'm a fan of HC110, but in the past I have used Rodinal as well. They are different, and they have their own advantages and disadvantages, but you really won't get to appreciate the advantages (other than ease of mixing) until you are familiar enough with them to optimize them for your own use.

If you were to leave the decision to me, I'd vote HC110, because I like it, it is a liquid, and therefore more convenient, and in its standard dilutions it is quite close in behavior to D76/ID11, which are as close to all purpose film developers as you can find.

Matt

Ole · Dec 18, 2006

A propos the "slam HARD": I usually hold the cassette in my hand with the top in my palm when slamming. It sometimes hurts, but at least I avoid the whole spool flying out, film unravelling all over a very dark room, and probably some of it ending up in the drain. Or worse...

Yes, Kodak cartridges are worst. Ilford and Agfa are easy.

srs5694 · Dec 18, 2006

reub2000 said:
Here's what I got in my shopping cart:
...
Anything in there that I don't need? Am I missing anything?

Some of these are "seconds" comments:

You don't need the 8oz tank if you get a 16oz tank.
You can use an ordinary bottle opener instead of the film can opener to save a bit of money.
The filter funnel is a funnel with a filter. If you just need to pour chemicals back into containers, an ordinary funnel from the grocery store will do fine.
I notice you're not buying stop bath. If you plan to use water or diluted vinegar, then fine; but if you want a photographic stop bath (perhaps with indicator dye), you should add that to the list.
I didn't see any hypo clear on the list. I'd add it; it'll help reduce wash times after you fix the film.
You also have no measuring cylinders on the list. Measuring cups from the grocery store will do, but probably aren't as precise as what you'd get from Freestyle. Don't grab existing measuring cups from your kitchen, use them in the darkroom, and then put them back in the kitchen; you don't want to risk contaminating your food with photochemicals.
If you stick with the Rodinal, you may need a small-capacity liquid measuring device. I use a baby's oral medicine syringe (sold without needle and with no need for a prescription at local drug stores). I'd expect Freestyle would sell something suitable, too, but I don't want to go looking just now.

reub2000 · Dec 18, 2006

Ordered everything this mourning. I plan on using a water to stop development. Seems that too many people on the B&W forum have problems with little holes on their film.

I plan to get some type of measuring cup and syringe. I also need to make a place to load the film reels.

I'm going to see if my friend is interested in this, and try to get him hooked.

wirehead · Dec 18, 2006

I got a Photographer's Formulary syringe. It comes with a little tube thingie so you can grab the dregs from a bottle.

Problem is that the metering on the syringe doesn't include the tube, so you have to empty the tube somehow.... so it doesn't seem very practical.

I like the medicine bottle one from the drugstore more, actually. The one I have includes a little plug designed to fit into bottle openings so you can hold the bottle upside down and syringe that way.

reub2000 · Dec 18, 2006

Found a "flavor injector". I think it's for injecting seasonings into a chicken. How accurate do my measurements have to be?

srs5694 · Dec 18, 2006

reub2000 said:
Found a "flavor injector". I think it's for injecting seasonings into a chicken. How accurate do my measurements have to be?

It's more important that they be consistent than that they be accurate. If you measure, say, 5ml of stock developer and it's really 6ml (if you measured it with laboratory-grade equipment), then you'll end up overdeveloping. If your measuring device consistently does this, though, you'll be able to compensate by measuring less developer or by reducing your development time. If you measure 5ml and it's really 4ml one time and 6ml the next time, though, you won't be able to adjust. Chances are just about anything for measuring volume will be consistent enough, at least when measuring the same volume. (Whether 10ml is really twice 5ml is another matter, though, and if it's not, that could lead to complications if you need to measure something other than your standard amount -- say because you're developing two rolls rather than one.)

MattKing · Dec 18, 2006

reub2000 said:
Found a "flavor injector". I think it's for injecting seasonings into a chicken. How accurate do my measurements have to be?

Accuracy is important. Repeatability is even more important.

I'd suggest getting a small graduated cylinder/medicine measurer from your local pharmacy. They are reasonably accurate, and often cheap or free.

Draw some water into the flavour injector. An amount equal to approximately 1/2 the capacity of the drugstore medicine measurer. Note the measurement on the flavour injector, and compare it to the medicine measurer. If it's the same, great, if not, figure out how much to adjust - i.e. use the medicine measurer as your standard.

Then go from there.

Any adjustment won't necessarioly scale well, but larger volumes are easier to measure anyways.

The important thing to remember about this, is that you use the technique to standardize your measurements, and then you adjust your times, temperatures and agitation to get the results you want, using the measurement techniques you have standardized on.

If you ever acquire measurement equipment with more inherent accuracy, your first step is to measure how much your old equipment differs.

If you can buy a backup flavour injector, that gives the same readings, it might be wise.

Matt

reub2000 · Dec 18, 2006

Also it's graduation are in 1ml amounts, HC-110 Dilution B calls for 7.5ml of solution.

My mom works at a lab at a hospital, she can definitely get this type of thing. I'll compare to see how accurate this thing is.

Lee L · Dec 19, 2006

I glanced back through the thread, but didn't see this mentioned. If you want to read up on HC-110, this is a good place to start:

http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

Lee

srs5694 · Dec 19, 2006

reub2000 said:
Also it's graduation are in 1ml amounts, HC-110 Dilution B calls for 7.5ml of solution.

When measuring volumes of liquid (or just about anything else with analog equipment), it's usually possible to guesstimate values between the marked amounts. Alternatively, you could increase the total volume slightly, so if that 7.5ml of solution makes 250ml of developer (that's a guess based on your SS tank; I've never used HC-110), then you could increase your total solution volume to 266.67ml. Of course, that means you'll probably be measuring your total solution volume between the lines....

Overall, though, I wouldn't get too anal about it. Diluting photographic developer requires more precision than the average cook uses in a kitchen, but being off by, say, 10% won't produce unuseable negatives.

Gerald Koch · Dec 19, 2006

A word or two about acutance developers. Rodinal is not a particularly good acutance developer unless it is used at higher than normal dilutions. In this case it is the higher dilution that is producing the acutance. If one doesn't wish to mix their own then there is Neofin Blue and Ethol T.E.C. which are also acutance developers and commercially available variants of the Beutler developer.

Kodak DK-50, which is readily available, can also be used as an acutance developer when diluted with extra Kodalk. Take 80 grams of Kodalk and dissolve it in 1 liter of water. Take 2 parts of DK-50 developer, 1 part of the Kodalk solution and 7 parts of water. Development times are in the range 8 to 13 minutes.

reub2000 · Dec 19, 2006

Might it just be easier to mix up a bit of HC-110 stock solution? Then I'd just have to measure 1 fl oz, and then mix in 7 fl oz of water to get dilution B. 1 fl oz is easier to accuratly measure than 7.5ml.

As for the developers, I've ordered them, I'd like to try these 2 developers and see what I get.

Gerald Koch · Dec 19, 2006

reub2000 said:
Might it just be easier to mix up a bit of HC-110 stock solution? Then I'd just have to measure 1 fl oz, and then mix in 7 fl oz of water to get dilution B. 1 fl oz is easier to accuratly measure than 7.5ml.

The problem with making up a stock solution of HC-110 to make dilution easier is that the solution will not keep very long. I think Kodak says 3 months. The concentrate contains no water and once you add water it's life is shortened just like any other developer.

I dilute HC-110 1:50 just like Rodinal and use 1.5X the dilution B development times. Produces very nice results.

reub2000 · Dec 19, 2006

Well, if I dilute 1 cup, enough to make 8 rolls worth of dillution B. I should have no problem shooting 8 rolls of film in 3 months.

Konical · Dec 19, 2006

Good Morning, Reub2000,

If you mix a powdered developer or prepare a stock solution from a liquid developer, you have two drawbacks. 1--limited shelf life to one degree or another; 2--storing the container. If I processed a lot of film and did it more or less consistently, neither drawback would be any particular problem. Since I don't, I find it far simpler to dilute liquid solutions such as HC-110 and T-Max directly from concentrate immediately before use. It's dead easy if you just use a small graduate. I have one which holds only 3/4 oz., so even the 1:31 HC-110B dilution can be done quite accurately. To me, preparing a stock solution is just an unnecessary waste of time and effort.

Konical

MattKing · Dec 19, 2006

reub2000 said:
Well, if I dilute 1 cup, enough to make 8 rolls worth of dillution B. I should have no problem shooting 8 rolls of film in 3 months.

I do something similar.

I take 2 ounces of concentrate and mix it to make 16 ounces of a stock solution that is actually half the strength of the stock solution recommended by Kodak. I store that in a (16 ounce) used HC110 bottle. If I am using dilution B, I mix 1 part of my stock to 3 parts water. If I am using dilution H, I mix 1 part of my stock to 7 parts water.

Generally I make up about 16 ounces of working solution at a time, so the quantities are easy to handle. If I should go more than a month without developing a film, it isn't an incredibly expensive decision to discard some unused stock

Matt

robert e · Dec 21, 2006

diluting HC110

I agree with MattKing and others--precision is important, more for the sake of repeatability than for accuracy.

To reiterate three good ways to increase precision:

1. Adjust volumes to suit your working precision (e.g. use 20ml concentrate instead of 7.5ml, with a proportionally greater amount of water). HC110 is so cheap that it's still cheap to make two or three times as much as you need and throw away the excess.

2. Get better working precision. The covingtoninnovations site mentioned upthread recommends a common oral syringe for babies, as found at most drug stores. One marked in 0.1ml increments cost me $2 plus tax.

3. (actually a variant of #1) Yes, go ahead and mix up stock solution. I've mixed small batches to minimize shelf life. To be extra sure, put a "use by" date on each batch and do test clips (good practice anyway).

Recommended dilution/temp/time combos for most developer/film combos are suggestions, to be tweaked per experience for things like desired negative density, exposure conditions, water supply characteristics, etc.

reub2000 · Dec 21, 2006

Okay, I got a couple of syringes. (Mom got them from her lab.) They measure up to 10ml. They say "Single Use". Can I reuse them if I'm only using them for measuring developer?

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