film categories: which are "retro" and which are not?

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Ian Grant

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A comment by Ian in his post really resonated with me and reflects much wisdom. (Quote) "A lot is down to the talents of the printer, I'd say (...) In the case of the Kertesz work the papers really needed just weren't available to modern printers, and who ever printed from his negatives had no clue how to emulate them. The difference is AA only used Bromide papers while Kertesz's early prints were on long gone Warm tome papers and look stark and unnatural on Bromide (if you've seen earlier versions)"

I agree. A few years ago I saw a Kertesz exhibition in Melbourne, which was printed on modern ("gicle", the loathsome yuppie term for inkjet) paper. The work was crap. Lacking in tonality, without the sparkle of images on traditional papers, not even sharp. It was so bad, I was left with the suspicion that the exhibitors (a private gallery, which will remain unnamed) had copied the images from a book. No sales were made, I believe. The gallery is now closed.

The modern Kertesz prints I saw in Paris were darkroom prints, it was a a day or so days after the Channel Tunnel fire so 1996. I would definitely say that the prints off early didn't look as sharp as the originals I'd seen in the late 1980s at the Barbican in London, this was really because they were printed far too large, I can't recall the exact size but around 12"x10" or slightly larger.

Kertesz's original pre-WWII contemporary prints were small none larger than half plate 8½ x 6½ inches, a variety of sizes and many less than half that size, possibly contact prints, but had and incredible feel a and quality that was completely lost in the modern "large" prints off the same negatives.

I saw the Kertsz "Early Work" exhibition by chance, I'd gone with two friends to see the major Ansel Adams exhibition "Classic Images" at the Barbican, this was a large exhibition of his major work, As we came out we spotted that there was a second exhibition in the foyer/bar? of the theatre, the Annsel Adams exhibition had been excellent but all three of us were blown away by the Kertesz exhibition which had a completely different feel, less technical and with a lot more soul.

I'd add that a lot of the retro look came from the lenses of the day and also how you work with them. The commonest pre-WWII design was the Tessar or similar and used hand held and at wider apertures the edge and particularly corner sharpness sharpness drops off and there's also less depth of field decreases, add to that films were quite a lot slower so lower shutters speeds. This is one reason Kertesz chose to only make small contemporary prints.

However if you shoot on a tripod at the optimum aperture a lens like a Tessar performs as well as modern Plasmat.

Ian
 
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trendland

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Inspired from an other treat - coming back to " RETRO " ( nice discussion :outlaw:)

Is Rollei Retro 80S a Retro Film ?

No it is not from my point of view - it is a very fine grained high quality film with the right develloper !

But ( so as some have a meaning of retro ) you can make him Retro - massive underexposure, long and strong devellopement, best results with Rodinal.

But thats not Retro:tongue:...........

Thats grainy and with low resolution !

with regards
 

Gerald C Koch

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The term 'retro' was dreamed up by a group of merketers. You will see such statements as 'silver rich' or that a film has a certain look. It's all mainly nonsense to sell an older technology film as something special.
 
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Pixophrenic

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The term 'retro' was dreamed up by a group of merketers. You will see such statements as 'silver rich' or that a film has a certain look. It's all mainly nonsense to sell an older technology film as something special.

I am surprised that this thread is revived after 3 months, coincident with me resuming posts on "taming" of this film. I was of the impression we were done following my statement that it was a bad choice of words on my side, and what I actually asked if anyone knew, was which films are "thin" and which are "thick", and that question was not answered. At the time I could sense this film was exceptional, if even because it dried so quickly. So, with this we are still where we were in June 2017. The "newsflash" coming from my experimentation in the meantime is that the emulsion of Retro 80S is indeed so thin that, a) stand development should work well where it generally does (not true for all developers!), and agitation has little or no effect on quality (no generalization for all films!) and b) two bath solutions with developing agent in the first bath and alkali in the second are not very useful, which I saw myself with a couple of metol-sulfite developers (again no generalization for all films and all developers!). On the bottom line, Rollei 80Ss is a standalone film, that's all I am saying.
 

Gerald C Koch

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My post was on the term 'retro' and not on quality of a specific film.
 

Arklatexian

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If one believes that everything on the net is true then I have some prime real estate in south Florida. Contact me during the dry season. :smile:

And if you like that land in Florida, there is a bridge connecting Manhattan with Brooklyn in New York City that you could buy for a nominal sum.....Regards!
 

Photo Engineer

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Pixophrenic

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My post was on the term 'retro' and not on quality of a specific film.

Accidentally I sort of found the answer to my original question, which, I repeat, was badly formulated around the term “retro”. The answer was found on Page 37 of The Darkroom Cookbook (2016) by Steve Anchell, which could be read through Google Books. Below is an abbreviated description of emulsion classes, which I was actually after.

Class 1. Classic old-style emulsions, the only surviving example being Adox CHS II. Depend exclusively on the inherent sensitivity of silver halide included in emulsion.

Class 2. Conventional grain emulsions, using either flat or a hybrid of cubic and flat grain. Use color dye sensitization to increase film sensitivity. Current offerings are Arista EDU, Fomapan 100, 200 and 400, Ilford’s Pan F, FP4+ and HP5+ and Kodak Tri-X.

Class 3. Flat grain emulsions. Depend heavily on dye sensitization to further minimize the use of silver halide. Current offerings are Fujufilm Acros 100, Kodak T-max films and Ilford Delta films. "These emulsions are the least sensitive to Zone System contraction and expansion and changes in development." (citation)

There is a fourth class, chromogenic films, which are probably covered somewhere else.

While I am still unsure to which of these classes Rollei Retro 80S belongs to, could anyone please comment on “changes in development”. Does Mr Anchell mean that anything but the dedicated developers would not be optimal for those films or that there is no point looking for a personal preference in developers?
 
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Anon Ymous

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So Adox CHS II is blue sensitive? This is just weird. I don't get the remark about the delta/TMax films either.
 
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Pixophrenic

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So Adox CHS II is blue sensitive? This is just weird. I don't get the remark about the delta/TMax films either.

Further down, it reads "CHS II is distinguished by the spectral curve and the method of sensitization that relies upon the sensitivity of silver halide". You are right, according to Anchell it should be blue sensitive. Unless "relies" means something else.
 

Gerald C Koch

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Depends on the edition of the Darkroom Cookbook. The 1st edition was full of errors. Anchell uses the term 'classic' not 'retro.' Their meanings are not identical. Retro applies more to the look of the film while classic the type of emulsion. AFAIK there are no unsensitized films for the amateur market. There are a few cine intermediate films not intended for in camera use. I have a copy of the Darkroom Cookbook and found it so full of mistakes that I don't even use it anymore.


Look at the following ADOX publication. It shows the film is sensitive into the red region of the spectrum.

[http://www.adox.de/Technical_Informations/TA_CHS100II_EN.pdf
 
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Pixophrenic

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Depends on the edition of the Darkroom Cookbook. The 1st edition was full of errors. Anchell uses the term 'classic' not 'retro.' Their meanings are not identical. Retro applies more to the look of the film while classic the type of emulsion. AFAIK there are no unsensitized films for the amateur market. There are a few cine intermediate films not intended for in camera use. I have a copy of the Darkroom Cookbook and found it so full of mistakes that I don't even use it anymore.


Look at the following ADOX publication. It shows the film is sensitive into the red region of the spectrum.

I am sure that I was reading the current, fourth edition of 2016. Google Books link to Amazon is broken, but on the inside of the cover page it reads 2016 edition.
 

Photo Engineer

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I would not rely on those classes at all as being descriptive of anything at all regarding film or paper emulsions. The fourth is a fantasy as all color emulsions are black and white emulsions.

I think I have described these classes elsewhere, but if not I can easily do so.

PE
 
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Pixophrenic

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I would not rely on those classes at all as being descriptive of anything at all regarding film or paper emulsions. The fourth is a fantasy as all color emulsions are black and white emulsions.

I think I have described these classes elsewhere, but if not I can easily do so.

PE
Please do. if even you did that before, an update would be nice.
 
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Pixophrenic

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IMHO, it would. If you think you will be just repeating yourself, I'll understand. There is still a common misconception that any popular developer can be adapted to any emulsion, with appropriate temperature, time and dilution, and I specifically asked to comment on Anchell's statement that flat grain films respond less to changes in development. Is there anything in that?
 

Photo Engineer

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Well, in point of fact, all Kodak films went through one developer (D76) for release. When I retired, there was some talk of changing to HC110, but the point is that all films are tested before sale for adherence to their main characteristics of speed, contrast, grain and sharpness. This means that all films, regardless of emulsion type have to go through one narrow funnel so to speak. With color, each component emulsion has to pass the same test before coating and then the films go through their respective color processes after coating for similar release tests.

The identical test regardless of emulsion type should tell us something about their response, right? If they responded differently, then each film would require a different developer to reveal its release characteristics. However, that being said, one must remember that speed, sharpness and grain are the triad of qualities that each developer / film combination is capable of. You can vary the developer or agitation to optimize any two of those three.

PE
 

Gerald C Koch

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Back in the days when films were rated by the American Standards Association (ASA) a single developer was used for the purpose. The ISO standard relaxes things a bit allowing the film manufacturer to choose the developer.
 
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Pixophrenic

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Well, in point of fact, all Kodak films went through one developer (D76) for release. When I retired, there was some talk of changing to HC110, but the point is that all films are tested before sale for adherence to their main characteristics of speed, contrast, grain and sharpness. This means that all films, regardless of emulsion type have to go through one narrow funnel so to speak. With color, each component emulsion has to pass the same test before coating and then the films go through their respective color processes after coating for similar release tests.

The identical test regardless of emulsion type should tell us something about their response, right? If they responded differently, then each film would require a different developer to reveal its release characteristics. However, that being said, one must remember that speed, sharpness and grain are the triad of qualities that each developer / film combination is capable of. You can vary the developer or agitation to optimize any two of those three.

PE
Actually, I do not see a problem that each film would require a different developer to reveal its release characteristics. Especially since soon there will be only a few films left on the market. But would not it be good to know that a) there is a reference developer which is used during production (you said for Kodak it is still D-76) and b) that specific developers are most useful for certain films. Then it would be nice to know the film groups, too. I know (from reading Crawley) that developer creators aiming for commercial use strived to produce a "uiniversal" formula as much as possible, but there is no such constraint when one mixes a developer from scratch. Crawley was well aware from experience that there are film groups that respond differently to the same developer, but his groups are obsolete today. Oddly, you keep avoiding a direct answer to Anchel's statement about T-grain films. His group division may not be a correct one, but it guides within the context of his book to support his statement that T-grain films were marketed as a step forward, while not everybody accepted that. It is just his opinion, and I am asking for alternative ones, not that you reveal trade secrets. May I humbly remind that we are talking about a contemporary "cookbook"?
 

MattKing

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With the exception of certain special purpose developers (such as the ones designed to permit pictorial work using high contrast, line oriented films) all developers will give useful results with all standard films.
Where there are differences between developers, they relate to one or more factors similar to the following:
1) how they balance the factors of speed, contrast, grain and sharpness;
2) how suitable they are for different types of processing - one-shot in small tanks, tray developing, rotary processing, deep tanks and replenishment, roller transport, etc.;
3) how stable they are and how easy they are to keep within tolerances in a high volume commercial environment;
4) how toxic they are to handle;
5) how easy they are to ship and mix;
6) how available their constituent components are;
7) how likely they are to cause certain problems in certain environments (e.g. dichroic fog and sheet films); and
8) how expensive they are to make and use.
You will note that with the exception of things like being prone to create dichroic fog with sheet films, there is nothing in that list that leads to a conclusion that any particular developer is unsuitable for any particular film.
Some developers might result in more grain than you might like. Other developers might result in lower sharpness and speed than you might like. Other developers might result in contrast that isn't suitable for your intended use, but in each case the differences are qualitative and in many cases subjective, rather than determinative and completely objective.
 
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faberryman

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The film manufacturers aren't going to test every developer, so you are going to have to rely on the experiences of others as reported in forums like this.
 
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Pixophrenic

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With the exception of certain special purpose developers (such as the ones designed to permit pictorial work using high contrast, line oriented films) all developers will give useful results with all standard films.
Where there are differences between developers, they relate to one or more factors similar to the following:
1) how they balance the factors of speed, contrast, grain and sharpness;
2) how suitable they are for different types of processing - one-shot in small tanks, tray developing, rotary processing, deep tanks and replenishment, roller transport, etc.;
3) how stable they are and how easy they are to keep within tolerances in a high volume commercial environment;
4) how toxic they are to handle;
5) how easy they are to ship and mix;
6) how available their constituent components are;
7) how likely they are to cause certain problems in certain environments (e.g. dichroic fog and sheet films); and
7) how expensive they are to make and use.
You will note that with the exception of things like being prone to create dichroic fog with sheet films, there is nothing in that list that leads to a conclusion that any particular developer is unsuitable for any particular film.
Some developers might result in more grain than you might like. Other developers might result in lower sharpness and speed than you might like. Other developers might result in contrast that isn't suitable for your intended use, but in each case the differences are qualitative and in many cases subjective, rather than determinative and completely objective.


Thank you, Matt. Many good points here, and I agree with most of them. I am, however, mostly concerned with #6 with regard to the uncertain future we are facing. Do the moderators think that it deserves a separate thread?
 
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