Film Camera Recommendation

[BrianShaw]

If you're adjusting the exposure, then yes, you could need to make adjustments in the processing of the film.

Please explain. I think an example of the scenario the OP had in mind was shooting snow scenes, for example. Meter normally, open 2 stops and shoot... or set the exposure compensation +2, meter normally and shoot. Why adjust processing -- that defeats the purpose of compensating for that purpose. Most people don't meter roll film and develop like one does sheet film using zone system, or beyond zone system, etc. Perhaps I misunderstood the question... I'm getting a bit confused with the 18% chatter. Most 35mm shooting can probably be accomplished with B&W or color neg by simply setting the camera to "A" and concentrating on the image vs the exposure.

 

[Sundowner]

Does that sound correct, or am I missing something?

You have to decide where to place values in your negative. You find a value, decide what zone it will occupy in your negative, and then adjust your exposure to achieve the results you wish. If you want shadows in a particular zone, you find the shadows you want, meter them, drop down the required number of stops from "middle gray", and trip the shutter.

With some of that extra cash you're going to have, buy some used copies of those books and decipher the basic system.

 

[Sundowner]

Please explain.

If you're pushing film, for example, or rating it at some other speed...you have to figure out your film in your camera and then determine what development gives you the look you want. I rate Tri-X at 160 in almost all of my cameras (except one where it's closer to 200) and I usually develop for 5:30 in 1:16 HC-110, etc, etc. Sometimes it's rated at 1600, though, when I'm using Diafine. All I was saying is that yes, you might have to alter your processing depending on what you are doing. This is why I suggested the books.

 

[Les Sarile]

When metering with an old SLR, if the meter indicator is very simple, such as a green dot that lights up when 18% grey is properly exposed, but I know that my scene is say 1 stop above or below 18% grey, could I turn the ISO knob to a lower ISO (for 1 stop above 18%) or a higher ISO (for 1 stop above 18%) when metering additional similar scenes (rather than having to adjust my shutter speed/aperture to hit 18% grey and then adjusting to 1 stop below or above that)? Not sure if I'm clear (probably not), but hopefully I am.

Also, say I decide to meter something that is 2 stop above 18% grey as 18% grey, do I need to do any special adjustments when developing and would I notice any ill effects such as additional grain?

If you want to overexpose a scene by 1 stop consistently, you can adjust the FG's compensation control by 1 stop or adjust the ISO by 1 stop. This way when you adjust shutter speed or aperture to 18% grey, your film will be overexposed by 1 stop. You can then have it push processed by 1 stop to normalize your film's results. Generally speaking, most color negative can tolerate quite a few stops overexposure before it is noticeable as in my previous example of latitude. Also, most negatives can tolerate 1 or 2 stops underexposure.The effect of underexposure is exaggerated grain while overexposure will lessen it.

If you rate the film higher - say ISO 100 as 200, you can then push process once to normalize it. Opposite is pull processing. I understand that push processing makes film more contrasty. A colleague of mine push processed ISO 100 Kodak TMAX100 to ISO 3200 and the results of developing was quite good. OTOH, I push processed Fuji Provia 400 to 3200 and the results were highly exaggerated grain.

I suggest you download the manuals for the cameras you are considering although they are all very similar. Most 80's cameras generally have all the same facilities varying only in manual/aperture priority autoexposure capabilities (aperture, shutter and program) as well as changeable screens/viewfinders and MLU. More importantly, you need to understand how your camera's meter works as well as how your choice of film behaves.

 

[Les Sarile]

The reason I asked, is that on a modern DSLR, you have a scale bar, that shows you how much over/under you are in relation to 18% grey. With older SLRs, I suspect you wouldn't know how much over/under you are, so you would essentially zero the meter on whatever you are metering on, and then increase/decrease to suit the true tonality(?) of what you are metering.

I know its been said in this thread that film has a wide latitude and can tolerate over/under exposure by multiple stops, but this question is mainly out of curiosity (plus I like to meter properly as best as I can just to avoid issues down the road).

Does that sound correct, or am I missing something?

With the FG, the LED's will tell you what it believes is 18% grey. If you adjust the shutter, aperture, compensation or ISO, the lower or higher LEDs will tell you by how much.

This is the full range of over and under exposure I get with Kodak Portra 400. Every film will have their own characteristics for this as well as how they handle various lights and you will have to learn each to make the most of it.

Link to larger version -> Kodak Portra 400 latitude

 

[BrianShaw]

I know its been said in this thread that film has a wide latitude and can tolerate over/under exposure by multiple stops, but this question is mainly out of curiosity (plus I like to meter properly as best as I can just to avoid issues down the road).

Does that sound correct, or am I missing something?

Laroy, no offense intended... but I think perhaps you are indeed missing something -- the basics. You may be overcomplicating things. You seem to have a good understanding of some of the elements to consider, but it is really difficult sometimes to put it together into meaningful practice. When using roll film most folks don't really work in accordance with a Zone System-like workflow. Maybe I'm reading too much into what you have previously written, but the impression I have is that you are thinking in those terms.

Generally one sets the ISO for box speed so that the camera can meter for that film accurately. It is up to the camera's metering system how well it does that, partly based on the scene and partly based on the meter design. As you seem to know some cameras are "spot" and others are "averaging" and others are "center weighted" and others are "matrix" (or some other trade name for a more complicated metering algorithm that weights for better expopsrues under various scene types when camera is set to "A"). With a Nikon center-weighted meter (the type on FE, FM, F3, and others), one can very often just set to "A" and get good shots a very high proportion of the time. Alternatively, one can manually meter to whatever is "normal" and do good. For beach or snow one would need to compensate the exposrue by +1 or +2 stops, say, to get a good image becuase those are one of the times when the meter "gets fooled". In pitch black one might need to compesate in the other direction. That can be done by changing the ISO setting, or using hte exposrue compensation feature that Nikon generally provides.

Here is my suggestion for getting a grip on the basics of metering and exposure: Google "Perfect Exposure" by Roger Hicks. That book is available for $0.99 + $3.99 shipping from several reliable book sellers. It is a great resource for learning both basics, and adjustments to the basics of photographic exposure.

 

[BrianShaw]

If you're pushing film, for example, or rating it at some other speed...

OK, understood. I don't think that is what he was talking about though. I could be wrong. If pushing or pulling is the intent youa re absolutely correct. Thanks.

 

[Les Sarile]

Here's one for Kodak BW400CN . . .

Link to larger version -> Kodak BW400CN Exposure

 

[Chan Tran]

BUt often you cannot change SS because you'll fall below safe handheld (1/60) speed, and you may be at your lens limit with regards to aperture, or for aesthetic composition reasons aperture change is off-limits. At that point EV via ISO is all that's left. As I wrote earlier, the standalone EV dial is more of a shortcut to ISO adjustment than the other 2 of the triangle. Of course one must be wary of the exposure latitude of film. From the evolution of my camera's the EV dial started as an ISO shortcut, but then on some models could be changed to alter SS or AV on electronic cameras (and digital; my DSLR allows for either SS or Av priority for EV with ISO handled separately).

Just going to the OP's question, you can adjust your ISO per shot for the desired EV compensation. That's what my Minolta manual says to do as it has no EV dial. My Pentax model of the same era has an EV dial which effectively alters the exposure by changing the ISO setting from the metered reading. It's a human derived, subjective override.

If you do not want to alter the shutter speed or aperture you simply can not change the amount of exposure. Changing ISO on a film camera often is not an option because you have to do that for the entire roll of film and then do push or pull processing which significantly compromise the quality of your pictures.

 

[Les Sarile]

It is no wonder that some folks get up in arms when their favorite film is revised or done away with as they have to relearn the characteristics of different film and there is so much to know about it - grain structure, sharpness, resolution, contrast, reaction to various types of lights and many more that I haven't even began to appreciate but it sure is fun learning it . . .

 

[laroygreen]

Not so much the Zone system, just what I'm used to doing with digital.

I shoot mainly in full manual mode, and I just meter off skin tones for portraits or the highlights if clipping could occur. I'll look into ordering a few books as I am new to shooting film in any meaningful way. I rarely have problems with exposure on my DSLR and as I said, I shoot manual 99% of the time, with no need to adjust exposure in post, but I'm just trying to wrap my head around the film world, which I know is different

For now, the information provided is good, and I'm very happy about the book recommendations as I learn best that way

 

[BrianShaw]

Good luck on your project. I hope soon you can stop worrying about the equipment, exposure, etc and spend lots of time planning the message and the associated images!

 

[BrianL]

I've not read through all the post, only the first 6 pages but, I agree with many, disagree with many.

A thief is generally not going to analyze whether your camera is a dslr or slr. More likely the best would be the brand recognition. Something saying Leica or Nikon will probably catch his eye more than Miranda, Yashica, Exacta etc. A rangefinder of zone focus possibly will attract less attention than a slr or dslr, an old black folder mf less so than a silver anything.

Your desired focal length spec is a limiting factor. It precludes many fixed focal length cameras that are very good in the 35-40mm range; if you can widen the spec, it opens you up to a whole range of possible solutions.

An internal meter can get in the way as well as a range finder. You seem to be describing street photography in a hostile environment but it is still street photogrpahy. Forget pin accurate metering as in any form it generally means taking a measurement and then doing the math to adjust for skin tones. Learn the lighting and skin tones and simply dial it in using your eye or, get a Weston meter as they quickly do the calc for you on the dial if you take 10 minutes to learn the dial. I've used the II, III and have used their last Ranger for almost all my photography hobby time and they are faster than in-camera metering unless you are using transparency film and have a very broad tonal range extending more than 4-6 zones. I think you have the dslr. Take it and use it to learn the Sunny 16 rule, really learn it. Go out, use the rule and then check with the camera. With practice you can easily get to within a quarter f/stop. Even today, I use the rule first and only check it with the meter vs using the meter and then trying to do some mental calcs.

Do not worry about the camera quality, concentrate on the subject and what you want to say. Many great photos were taken by cameras with lenses considered soft, not contrasty, etc. by today's standards. I've seen great results from an artist whose only camera was an Argus C-3 with the Argus lens set (I think they were Wollensak). I doubt anyone would throw out a Matthew (sp?) Brady photo and call it poor because he did not use a Leica, Zeiss, Nikon, etc. In the end it is the photographer and not the equipment that makes the difference between trash, a nice photograph and a historic keeper. Think of the photo of the sailor kissing the nurse in Times Square, one of the most reproduced photos in history - what camera was used? What was more important, the lens or the photographer who had the eye to capture the moment.

Sometimes a less than steller spec camera can be a benefit. When I taught beginner photography the students invariable would at first ask whether to blow the holiday money on Camera A or B. After the 1st course I decided show and tell was better than orally explaining this so I took a day and loaded the same emulsion in my Bronica ETRS and a bakelite camera with similar focal length and a single "instant" shutter speed. I had previously determined the seed was about 1/60th of a second and it had 4 aperatures. I took a set of tripods and did setups, set the exposures to the same (well, as close as they permitted) and adjusted for the slight focal length differences by moving the cameras so the resulting image was as close as possible exposure wise and angle of view. Oh, the film was b&w and color. I handed around the results and asked 3 questions: 1) which did they like better, 2) which probably conveyed more truth as the photographer saw it and 3) which technically looked to the product of the better camera. 1 and 2 almost 100% in each class was the answer was the bakelite camera while with 3 there was usually a split decision. They did not learn which set of prints were from what camera until the votes were in. Not the best response to some guy who paid more than $2k for a basic mf camera and pulled the other from a trash bin. It even taught me a lesson and from then on my money into film and development and not equipment. I still have the bakelite camera and really like using it for portraits and photos where persons are the subject. The lousy lens is soft yet yields lines and wrinkles so pleasingly with its less than high contrast.

If you want an automated or coupled meter some of the earlier slrs and rangefinders had coupled metering but, not through the lens which is most useful if using filters, extension tubes or the like. The meters were either built in but metered from a cell in the body or clipped on the top and usually has an index tab to the speed dial to couple it to the lens. These meters could be selenium or cds. Both with no more learing than any built in meter was as easy to use as the ttl metering that came later except most had little or no information in the viewfinder to interfer with the focusing and composing. I recently picked up one of the very reliable tanks, a Asahi S1a slrs that predates the spotmatic and has a build to withstand a direct hit from a Sherman tank. I've tried the matching meter a camera store has to see how well it all worked and using the combo after a few minutes was fast and easy; basically set the aperature and us the meter to set the speed. The viewfinder is clear. In the street this system works nicely as I did not have to aim and set, just pointed the camera in the general direction as I walked and read the readout on top of the camera with turn also setting the camera. Even easier than a handheld without the restriction of an in-camera meter as you walk around. I did not buy the meter as the asking price was too high but I suspect I'll get a call as the meter has been sitting for more than a year and I've been the only guy to bite at all.

As for the battery issue, many older meters; in and out of camera used the PX625. CHRIS makes an excellent adaptor to use a modern battery. I have them for 2 of my exposure meters, my Leica CL, a pair of Yashica FX-3 bodies and they've worked flawlessly for more than 4 years. So the battery issue is not an issue except for alarmists. Many of the meters also can be adjusted for the different voltages and some are not voltage sensitive such as the meter in the Spotmatic.

As for specific camera recommendations well, you'll get probably every make and model before the thread dies out. My experience is that newer electronic cameras vs older vintage mechanical cameras are a tossup. The average life of an lcd screen is about 5 years from industry sources so many excellent electronic cameras screens are coming onto design end of life. Caps have an average life for in-spec of around 15 years so the circuits likewise are getting near end of life. 40 year old cameras are also at a point where grease is at end of life so at this point neither type is better than the other in absolute terms. A mechanical camera has fewer parts and is easier to fix without complex instruments needed for the electronics and electronics parts such as ics may no longer be available while mechanical parts can many time be scavenged. Best to talk to local sources to see who can service what and costs. Some mechanical cameras shutters are easier to disassemble than other and costs are significantly less. A copal type shutter is generally less than a cloth shutter on an slr.

If looking for an slr, the Yashica FX-3 with a Yashica wa lens is a great compromise combination that is low cost. The Yashica C/Y lenses reportedly borrowed from the Zeiss designs they were making for Zeiss under contract for their Contax camera line from which the FX series of cameras were derived. Also, the Spotmatic with the M42 sm and earlier bodies are excellent and the lenses from that period by Asahi were 2nd only to the likes of Leica and Zeiss. Today they can be had for next to nothing for most.

 

[Sundowner]

I shoot mainly in full manual mode, and I just meter off skin tones for portraits or the highlights if clipping could occur.

Try metering shadows...that way, you'll get the detail you want within them. Then, work with your highlights when you print. I'm still learning that.

 

[John Koehrer]

If you do not want to alter the shutter speed or aperture you simply can not change the amount of exposure. Changing ISO on a film camera often is not an option because you have to do that for the entire roll of film and then do push or pull processing which significantly compromise the quality of your pictures.

Up to post #109 before someone bothered to mention that!
Exposure compensation adds or subtracts exposure to the film and does that by CHANGING THE EXPOSURE not by magic.
If you add exposure for beach or snow, no compensation is needed in developing. In a negative it adds density to the negative which equals a light area(white) in a print. In a transparency it reduces density which makes it brighter(white).

 

[laroygreen]

Thanks!

I've already written most of the "script" for the documentary, just need to actually put together an interview list (people willing to be interviewed and sign a release), work on the schedules and plan the final presentation and find someone to collaborate with (to help editing the script, etc.).

I'm also registering a small company which will handle any legal liabilities, such as if I interview someone who discloses something they shouldn't or if someone trips on a wire and sues, as a small company (LLC), my personal assets are completely separate and protected.

This also allows me to take out insurance, though that aspect is proofing a little more difficult as most insurers only provide property/estate insurance, i.e. if someone gets injured or if your gear gets stolen from the company premises, your covered, if it happens elsewhere, your tough out of luck. I should be able to get around it though.

I've also compiled a list of gear on BH and Keh to order, not much stuff I need, just recorder, camera, lens, film and a few other miscellaneous items. Everything else, I already own or can borrow.

So ... full speed ahead, for better or worse

 

[Bill Burk]

When metering with an old SLR, if the meter indicator is very simple, such as a green dot that lights up when 18% grey is properly exposed, but I know that my scene is say 1 stop above or below 18% grey, could I turn the ISO knob to a lower ISO (for 1 stop above 18%) or a higher ISO (for 1 stop above 18%) when metering additional similar scenes (rather than having to adjust my shutter speed/aperture to hit 18% grey and then adjusting to 1 stop below or above that)? Not sure if I'm clear (probably not), but hopefully I am.

Hi laroygreen,

Good luck on your project!

I wouldn't change the ISO on the camera to compensate for exposure because you'll forget to set it back and then be worse off...

But I don't check the meter every shot if I'm in the same light. That way a few shots at the same time look the same as each other.

 

[michaelbsc]

I'll add one more recommendation for a Yashica FX-3 as an inexpensive choice. As someone noted, there was one for sale here if it isn't gone. But they aren't hard to find on that auction site.

And they're cheap enough that loosening one isn't a tragedy. But they work great. And the Yashica ML glass is super. While the Zeiss glass is even better. Some of the third party C/Y mount stuff is flaky, but reviews abound.

 

[MattKing]

On the metering question.

Some cameras include information in the viewfinder about how much your set exposure is over or under the recommended exposure.

For example, the OM 1 has markings in the viewfinder that, when the meter needle points there, indicate respectively 1/2 and 1 stop additional or less exposure.

And the OM 2s has markings in the viewfinder that, when the LCD meter indicator aligns there, indicate respectively 1/3, 2/3, 1, 4/3, 5/3 and 2 stops additional or less exposure.

The Canon EOS cameras offer something similar to the OM 2s.

 

[baachitraka]

I personally do not worry much about metering, when considering the nature of the project you will involve. Since lighting conditions will not change drastically in a given hour. So, I will put my concern on bright view finder.

Set once the aperture and shutter speed to bring the meter needle somewhere in the middle, and start taking pictures without worrying much about proper exposure.

Check List
----------
- Check ISO settings.
- Check Aperture.
- Check Shutter speed.

 

[Aristophanes]

Up to post #109 before someone bothered to mention that!
Exposure compensation adds or subtracts exposure to the film and does that by CHANGING THE EXPOSURE not by magic.

Well, the EV dial on many models changes one of the 3 values of the system. The value I've sen altered for all cameras I have owned is ISO, not Av or Tv. In fact, my Minolta has no EV dial, and the manual says for EV compensation shot-by-shot, change the ISO instead.

 

[BrianShaw]

Thanks!

I've already written most of the "script" for the documentary, just need to actually put together an interview list (people willing to be interviewed and sign a release), work on the schedules and plan the final presentation and find someone to collaborate with (to help editing the script, etc.).

I'm also registering a small company which will handle any legal liabilities, such as if I interview someone who discloses something they shouldn't or if someone trips on a wire and sues, as a small company (LLC), my personal assets are completely separate and protected.

This also allows me to take out insurance, though that aspect is proofing a little more difficult as most insurers only provide property/estate insurance, i.e. if someone gets injured or if your gear gets stolen from the company premises, your covered, if it happens elsewhere, your tough out of luck. I should be able to get around it though.

I've also compiled a list of gear on BH and Keh to order, not much stuff I need, just recorder, camera, lens, film and a few other miscellaneous items. Everything else, I already own or can borrow.

So ... full speed ahead, for better or worse

Great... go full steam ahead. I didn't get the impression that you were quite that organized or, for lack of better word, profesional. Why are you sweating equipment, then? Insure your gear if you can and keep affordable back-up gear in case something gets damaged or stolen. Bring a friend (or friends) to watch your back, and use the gear you are already familiar with. I assume you are happy with the results you get from your current gear. If you want to go retro for "artistic reasons" then ignore that suggestion.

Interestingly, I have similar interests but it seems like we are complete opposites: I do not fit into the rougher neighborhoods I sometimes shoot, I don't worry about getting my wallet or gear stolen (because I tend to be so cautious that I'll be long gone before the bad person gets near me... unless he jumps from a rooftop while I'm standing on the sidewalk below)... and I shoot only film with very limited experience with digital and histograms, etc. All I know is that histograms are interesting but (for me) provide so much data that I get distracted from image making.

 

[BrianShaw]

Well, the EV dial on many models changes one of the 3 values of the system. The value I've sen altered for all cameras I have owned is ISO, not Av or Tv. In fact, my Minolta has no EV dial, and the manual says for EV compensation shot-by-shot, change the ISO instead.

On the Nikons the EV compensation dial is attached to the ISO dial... so I'll bet it changes the ISO setting. It really doesn't matter which of the 3 values one changes to compensate their exposure as long as one knows how to do EV compensation (either for off-nominal scene exposure "correction" or pushing/pulling purposes) and the effect/impacts.

 

[Les Sarile]

On the Nikons the EV compensation dial is attached to the ISO dial... so I'll bet it changes the ISO setting.

It must be as you loose the ability to adjust compensation when you have the ISO dial all the way to end. It looks like this applies to all cameras with compensation adjustment.

 

[John Koehrer]

Well, the EV dial on many models changes one of the 3 values of the system. The value I've sen altered for all cameras I have owned is ISO, not Av or Tv. In fact, my Minolta has no EV dial, and the manual says for EV compensation shot-by-shot, change the ISO instead.

The point is, exposure will be changed no matter which of the variables is used. If you use a higher or lower ISO the camera will use either a faster/slower speed or larger/smaller f stop. It's the way it is and shall always be. =)