Fiber Printing

[Lori V]

A few questions...

Do you selenium tone all your fiber? For longevity or for color change?

When toning...is it Water bath, Fix, Hypoclear, Toner, Archival Wash?

How do you dispose of your used fix and selenium?

What experience have you had with Ilford MG Warmtone Fiber and Kodak Selenium?

 

[rwyoung]

Fix to completion (test your fixer or use capacity charts)

Wash - frequently leave prints resting in tray of water for several hours while other things get finished. Change water once in a while and follow up with 5 minutes in fresh gently running water (tray siphon)

HCA - 10 minutes soak, occasional agitation. Only a as many prints as will fit in the try without serious overlap, so depends on the final print size and tray size.

Wash - wash in tray with siphon. Test after 5 minutes for residual hypo, and every 5 minutes after that. Very low flow of siphon. Usually gets passing grade from test after 10 minutes. For the purpose of residual hypo test, I just drop in a little strip of unexposed paper from the same batch and fixed for the same time. If soaking a batch in wash step 1, I don't add this test scrap until the very last so that it represents the LEAST wash time.

Move to holding tray with fresh water

Toner - depends on desired final result

Wash - 10 minutes, gentle flow


Selenium I use to exhaustion - that is to say no toning after 10 minutes. This takes months per batch at the rate I work. Used fixer goes in a bucket with some steel wool and just evaporates leaving behind the gunk. I can take it to the hazardous household waste site eventually. Dead toner gets dumped into the same bucket to evaporate.

 

[msage]

A few questions...

Do you selenium tone all your fiber? For longevity or for color change?

When toning...is it Water bath, Fix, Hypoclear, Toner, Archival Wash?

How do you dispose of your used fix and selenium?

What experience have you had with Ilford MG Warmtone Fiber and Kodak Selenium?

Hi Lori
You will get a number of different responses, this is what I have been doing for 30+ years, no stains and no other problems.

Stop, Fix, Hypoclear, Toner, Hypoclear, Archival Wash

Works for me.
Michael

 

[MarcoGiardini]

I have a done a work on cemetery and graves based on Ilford MG Warmtone Fiber developed in the Ilford Warm tone. For my test can be too warm untill you do not prepare the bath with 50%warm tone and 50% normal ilford multigrade.

marco

 

[dpurdy]

Where do you get the residual silver tester?
Dennis

 

[DannL]

Though I didn't see it mentioned, I find it necessary to tone prints in a well ventilated area. So, for me that means toning outside. I find the smell of ammonia can be quite overwhelming at times.

 

[rwyoung]

Where do you get the residual silver tester?
Dennis

You can buy it or make it.

Buy it : Photographer's Formulary for example
Make it : http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Archival/archival.html has the old Kodak formulas.

Keep in mind, testing for residual silver and testing for washing (hypo) are two different things. One is looking to see if you fixed long enough. The other is to see if you have washed long enough.

There is yet another fixer test, and that is one to see if the bath has exhausted. Again, you can make it or buy it. If you buy it, a little bottle will last a VERY long time.

I don't test for residual SILVER in prints or film. I suppose I should add that to the procedure. Instead, for film, I've done quick tests in fresh fixer (TF-4) and stuff that is at 50% capacity (based on PF's instruction sheet) for the clearing time of the films I use. Then I just double the longest one and go with that. For paper, I use the time given by the manufacturer +25% and keep a rough capacity count for the baths.

I am testing for residual hypo after washing though, but in batches, not on each individual print. For film, I ran a test and I just wash for a fixed amount (no stain fill & dump cycles plus 2 more).

 

[Larry Bullis]

The advice here is wonderful. I'm going to review my own process and tighten up my discipline a bit; mostly to save water, because although I get great results, I'm perhaps overly generous with the wash. We really need to be concerned about this. Photography uses a disgusting amount of water. A commercial color lab with several roller transport processors could be like a small river - and incidentally, produce solid waste that could shame a small city. The migration to digital color has probably improved this, but of course, introduces other environmental problems.

I have used the combination that you ask about quite successfully. Ilford warmtone untoned looks a bit greenish and not very lively to me; I don't like the tone very much. Just the right amount of toning cuts that tint, improves the depth, and produces a coldish brown much more to my liking. I use the toner both for the way the print appears, and to enhance permanence. It is my main printing paper these days, but never without toning.

I dilute my toner about ten to 1 with H2O and watch it carefully, never toning more than a very few prints at a time, usually only one. I keep an untoned sample to compare the tone with, and after the first, use the previous print as a target. The tray where I place the toned prints is being continuously refreshed by running water. Remember that toning continues for a time until the toner is gone from the emulsion. The toner lasts a long time.

The idea of evaporation of the toner is great. As for disposal of the fixer, I try to use a local recovery. If you can find a medical/dental x-ray facility that recovers their fixer, they may be willing to take it. After all, the price of silver these days makes recovery worth it. Sometimes the hazardous waste guys balk at taking photo stuff if they suspect that you could be a business. Having been one, I suppose I'm more wary of that. If you don't take a lot at a time, no problem.

 

[dpurdy]

I am testing for residual hypo after washing though, but in batches, not on each individual print. For film, I ran a test and I just wash for a fixed amount (no stain fill & dump cycles plus 2 more).

Right I think my previous question was a hypo typo because I was thinking hypo and writing silver.

So then how where do you get a test for residual hypo? Same places?
Dennis

 

[Deckled Edge]

Lori,
I have used nothing but fiber for 25 years, and I usually "tone" with KRST 1:9. Older papers got blacker and richer, but newer VC fiber papers do nothing until they begin to turn purple. I rarely want to see any color change, so I do one at a time for 3 min. or less--purely archival and purely by the watch/thermometer--no visual cues or tonal change. Fix, rinse, hypoclear, water bath holding, tone, hypoclear, wash.

 

[rwyoung]

Right I think my previous question was a hypo typo because I was thinking hypo and writing silver.

So then how where do you get a test for residual hypo? Same places?
Dennis

Yep. Here are a few numbers from PF...
http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=2&tabid=9&CategoryID=37&langID=0

If you want to mix it yourself, you can get the raw materials from PF or you might like B&S
http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/

I think you can get the stuff at www.digitaltruth.com and ArtCraft too. Lots of sources for the simple compounds.

 

[Rolleijoe]

A few questions...

Do you selenium tone all your fiber? For longevity or for color change?

When toning...is it Water bath, Fix, Hypoclear, Toner, Archival Wash?

How do you dispose of your used fix and selenium?

What experience have you had with Ilford MG Warmtone Fiber and Kodak Selenium?

1. I only selenium tone certain images for that look.
2. Developer, stop, fix, hypo, tone, wash
3. 1 gallon jugs
4. Forget Ilford, the best choice is Foma Fomatone WA VC Fiber. Knocks the six off of Ilford, and Kodak isn't the only maker of selenium out there.

You need a (free) Freestyle Photo catalog. They're the only company with a return policy on film, paper, & chemistry! THINK FOMA!

Rolleijoe

 

[Les McLean]

1.
4. Forget Ilford, the best choice is Foma Fomatone WA VC Fiber. Knocks the six off of Ilford,

Rolleijoe

That's a purely subjective decision and, with respect, in my opinion a rather silly piece of advice.

Lori, I'd suggest you try as many papers as you can either afford or have access too to make comparisions before making a firm decision as to which combination best suits you.

 

[roy]

I support Les. Use the paper that suits your requirements at the time and for your interpretation of the subject matter and how you would like to see the final results, whether toned or not. The only way to achieve this is to try a selection of papers and see how they respond. You may well finish up with more than one paper that you like.

 

[PhotoJim]

Many well-known photographers are rather flexible in their use of paper, too. Ansel Adams used to choose his paper based on the specific subject. Each paper has its own signature and tonal range and image colour.

I recommend choosing one to start (Ilford Multigrade IV FB is an excellent one that I use a lot despite having alternatives) and once comfortable with it, try others. Don't view them as outright replacements unless you really come to think that after using them extensively. View them as additions to your palette. The now-discontinued Forte Polywarmtone, for example, has a delicious warm tone that I have found (thus far) to be unmatchable, but for most subjects it was too dramatic. For the right subject, it was a great paper to use.

 

[dancqu]

I'm going to review my own process and tighten up my
discipline a bit; mostly to save water, ... I'm perhaps
overly generous with the wash. Photography uses
a disgusting amount of water.

The migration to digital color has probably improved this, ...

The method I've adopted does not use "disgusting" amounts
of water. In fact the method I've developed uses LESS water
than ANY other method. Not only does the method use the
LEAST amount but it uses VERY LITTLE.

The VERY LITTLE added because ANY other method makes
use of RIDICULOUSLY HUGE volumes. Dan

 

[Larry Bullis]

The method I've adopted does not use "disgusting" amounts
of water. In fact the method I've developed uses LESS water
than ANY other method. Not only does the method use the
LEAST amount but it uses VERY LITTLE.

The VERY LITTLE added because ANY other method makes
use of RIDICULOUSLY HUGE volumes. Dan

I worked in commercial color labs in the 70's. Niagra falls would possibly been adequate to keep most of the labs in the US going then. But probably not. I like what you posted. I keep it pretty low, but you get the prize.

 

[Larry Bullis]

The method I've adopted does not use "disgusting" amounts
of water. In fact the method I've developed uses LESS water
than ANY other method. Not only does the method use the
LEAST amount but it uses VERY LITTLE.

The VERY LITTLE added because ANY other method makes
use of RIDICULOUSLY HUGE volumes. Dan

Well I guess you get the prize. Actually, I was responding to Rob. I had to look elsewhere for your method. Interesting.

We have always been given to believe that changes of water are the main thing. I generally use a couple of minutes of directed hand wash or very light use of the tray siphon if I have more prints. Never had a problem.

The water saving issue is often overdone; you know, water saving toilets that take two flushes to get the job done. Bad economy.

 

[Lori V]

Thanks to everyone for the advice and ideas.

Being fairly new to the darkroom...I've yet to experiment with papers. I've definitely liked the look of the Ilford Warmtone (Glossy), with the warmtone developer. Once I get really comfortable with the process...I'll branch out a little.