I'm not saying that two bath fixing is not a valid way to fix your prints, it is. I'm just saying that Ilford's single bath method is just as valid. It does mean you go through a bit more fixer though. I just can't be bothered with two trays of fixer and I've also seen too many people using 2 bath that don't time their fixing so god only knows how much fixer the paper has absorbed. For me, a timed 60 Second fix in film strength fixer is the way to go, but everyone has their own methods. BTW, does anybody use two bath fixing for films? What a waste of time! A litre of Ilford rapid fixer (1:4) fixes at least 20 films.
Fiber printing advice please :)
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You don't get it, do you. Fixing for half the time in half strength fixer will NOT get you there.
READ MY SIGNATURE LINE
I have always used a single fixer bath, but it you have the time and space free free to use two baths.
MattKing
Moderator
To the OP:
There is more than one way to properly fix your prints. The various ways each have their distinctive advantages, and usually practical disadvantages. As you gain experience, if your circumstances (e.g. sink space) permit, you can try the options and make a decision for yourself.
Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion.
There is more than one way to properly fix your prints. The various ways each have their distinctive advantages, and usually practical disadvantages. As you gain experience, if your circumstances (e.g. sink space) permit, you can try the options and make a decision for yourself.
Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion.
First to the OP's easier issuew and then on to fixing and washing with a view to Rick A and markbau's discussion about fixing:
@Chrishuddersfield
When changing from RC to fiber-base paper, you need to be aware of the processing differences. Generally, fiber-base papers need longer development times than RC papers. Two minutes is about minimum; I like 2.5 minutes as a standard. Fixing and washing are also longer and very important steps to get right if you want your prints to last. There are a couple of approaches to fixing and washing, which I'll discuss below.
First on to scaling up prints. There's a handy formula I use based on print dimensions. You take the length of one side of your smaller print and figure out how long you want that to be on your larger paper. Say we have an old print with a 10-inch side (original dimension or OD) and we want that to be 15 inches long (new dimension or ND) in the new print. And, because you keep careful notes, you've got all the information for exposure time and dodging and burning times written down. You need the original time (OT). Then you do the simple calculation: (ND/OD)^2 x OT = NT (new time). Let's plug in our numbers: 15/10 = 1.5 1.5 x 1.5 (1.5 squared) = 2.25. Now, lets say our original exposure time was 15 seconds. 15 x 2.25 = 33.75. Let's round this off to make 34 seconds as your new time.
Note that the above only works if the paper speed and contrast response are exactly the same for both sizes. Not likely to happen even with the same brand of paper. However, this gives you a close enough starting point that you don't waste a lot of paper. If you're using the same paper, just do the calculations and make a print. If not, e.g., if you're changing from RC to fiber base, do the calculations and then make a test strip around that time. Use your test strip to zero in on exposure time and to tweak contrast.
New dodging and burning times can be figured using percentages. Simply figure what percentage of your base exposure the times for dodging and burning are in the original, smaller print. Once you arrive at a new exposure time for your larger print, use that new time as a basis to calculate your new dodging and burning times as percentages of that. Example: Let's say I've dodged an area on my small print for 3 seconds of my original 15 second exposure. That's 20%. So, with my new 34 second exposure, that makes my dodging time 6.8 seconds, or, rounded up, seven seconds. Again, these are only starting times, but they will get you close right away.
Okay, now on to fixing and washing:
There are two basic approaches to fixing and washing fiber-base paper for optimum permanence. The first, older and "classic" approach is exemplified by Kodak's recommendation. The newer approach, with shorter fixing and washing times, is Ilford's optimum permanence sequence. This latter is described on Ilford's website here: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/ilford-optimum-permanance-wash-sequence-fb-papers/ . In short, it relies on using strong rapid fixer one-bath for a short time to prevent fixer from soaking into the paper base and an extended treatment in wash aid to get rid of the fixer. Wash times are quite short. compared to the Kodak regime. The downside to this approach is that the fixer capacity is quite low in comparison to two-bath fixing; only 10 8x10 prints per liter for optimum permanence and 40 for the less-permanent "commercial" standard. One could, theoretically, use two-bath fixing methods together with the shorter fixing time, but this is really only practical for smaller prints. With larger prints, it is really a challenge to keep the fixing time down to 30 seconds in each bath when you include drain times, etc. Note that fixing longer than the 60 seconds Ilford specifies for this regime effectively negates the advantage it provides and requires longer wash times.
The "classic" method of fixing and washing as exemplified by Kodak's methods, and using a two-bath fixing regime are:
1. prepare two fixing baths
2. fix the print for half the total fixing time in bath 1 and then drain and transfer it to bath 2 for for the second half of the fixing time.
3. transfer the print to a water-rinse tray and rinse for at least 1 minute
4. transfer the print to the wash-aid tray and treat it with agitation for 3 minutes.
5. wash in running water for at least 20 minutes.
With two bath fixing, you use bath one till its "commercial" capacity has been reached (40 8x10s per liter) then discard it and replace it with bath 2, which now becomes the new bath one. Mix a new bath 2. This cycle can be repeated 4 times. The advantage of two-bath fixing is that bath one does the lion's share of the fixing, even though by-products build up in the fixer that would damage the print if not fixed further. Bath 2 finishes things off, converting those by-products to water-soluble compounds easily and not affecting its capacity much (which is why it can be used as bath 1 later), and ensuring that the print is fixed to optimum permanence standards.
The fixing times you use for fiber-base prints will depend on the fixer you choose. Conventional (mixed from powder) fixers are sodium thiosulfate based and require longer times, usually 5-10 minutes. Rapid fixers (mixed from liquids) work faster. Times for these fixers depends on the dilution used. The stronger "film-strength" dilution is used by Ilford in its optimum permanence sequence and has fixing times around 1 minute. The weaker "paper-strength" dilution needs times of 2-3 minutes. So, it's important to know what fixer you are using and what dilution. In other words, read the directions.
Equally important is not overusing your fixer! If you want optimum permanence for your prints, then 10 8x10-inch prints per liter of fixer with a single-bath regime is all you get. You can go up to around 40 8x10s per liter if you just need "commercial" permanence (usually this is a lifespan of just a few years compared to the many decades for optimally processed prints). With a two-bath regime, one is fixing for optimum permanence. Capacity there is around 40 8x10s per liter of bath 1 (note, you've got bath 2 as well, which means you get roughly 20 8x10s per liter total, double that of the single-bath regime, but with longer fixing and washing times).
Do read and digest the Ilford tech sheet on Rapid Fixer here: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1833/product/711/ . It's well worth the read. Pay attention to the difference in "commercial" capacities and the capacities listed in the section on fixing for optimum permanence.
Hope this helps,
Doremus
@Chrishuddersfield
When changing from RC to fiber-base paper, you need to be aware of the processing differences. Generally, fiber-base papers need longer development times than RC papers. Two minutes is about minimum; I like 2.5 minutes as a standard. Fixing and washing are also longer and very important steps to get right if you want your prints to last. There are a couple of approaches to fixing and washing, which I'll discuss below.
First on to scaling up prints. There's a handy formula I use based on print dimensions. You take the length of one side of your smaller print and figure out how long you want that to be on your larger paper. Say we have an old print with a 10-inch side (original dimension or OD) and we want that to be 15 inches long (new dimension or ND) in the new print. And, because you keep careful notes, you've got all the information for exposure time and dodging and burning times written down. You need the original time (OT). Then you do the simple calculation: (ND/OD)^2 x OT = NT (new time). Let's plug in our numbers: 15/10 = 1.5 1.5 x 1.5 (1.5 squared) = 2.25. Now, lets say our original exposure time was 15 seconds. 15 x 2.25 = 33.75. Let's round this off to make 34 seconds as your new time.
Note that the above only works if the paper speed and contrast response are exactly the same for both sizes. Not likely to happen even with the same brand of paper. However, this gives you a close enough starting point that you don't waste a lot of paper. If you're using the same paper, just do the calculations and make a print. If not, e.g., if you're changing from RC to fiber base, do the calculations and then make a test strip around that time. Use your test strip to zero in on exposure time and to tweak contrast.
New dodging and burning times can be figured using percentages. Simply figure what percentage of your base exposure the times for dodging and burning are in the original, smaller print. Once you arrive at a new exposure time for your larger print, use that new time as a basis to calculate your new dodging and burning times as percentages of that. Example: Let's say I've dodged an area on my small print for 3 seconds of my original 15 second exposure. That's 20%. So, with my new 34 second exposure, that makes my dodging time 6.8 seconds, or, rounded up, seven seconds. Again, these are only starting times, but they will get you close right away.
Okay, now on to fixing and washing:
There are two basic approaches to fixing and washing fiber-base paper for optimum permanence. The first, older and "classic" approach is exemplified by Kodak's recommendation. The newer approach, with shorter fixing and washing times, is Ilford's optimum permanence sequence. This latter is described on Ilford's website here: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/ilford-optimum-permanance-wash-sequence-fb-papers/ . In short, it relies on using strong rapid fixer one-bath for a short time to prevent fixer from soaking into the paper base and an extended treatment in wash aid to get rid of the fixer. Wash times are quite short. compared to the Kodak regime. The downside to this approach is that the fixer capacity is quite low in comparison to two-bath fixing; only 10 8x10 prints per liter for optimum permanence and 40 for the less-permanent "commercial" standard. One could, theoretically, use two-bath fixing methods together with the shorter fixing time, but this is really only practical for smaller prints. With larger prints, it is really a challenge to keep the fixing time down to 30 seconds in each bath when you include drain times, etc. Note that fixing longer than the 60 seconds Ilford specifies for this regime effectively negates the advantage it provides and requires longer wash times.
The "classic" method of fixing and washing as exemplified by Kodak's methods, and using a two-bath fixing regime are:
1. prepare two fixing baths
2. fix the print for half the total fixing time in bath 1 and then drain and transfer it to bath 2 for for the second half of the fixing time.
3. transfer the print to a water-rinse tray and rinse for at least 1 minute
4. transfer the print to the wash-aid tray and treat it with agitation for 3 minutes.
5. wash in running water for at least 20 minutes.
With two bath fixing, you use bath one till its "commercial" capacity has been reached (40 8x10s per liter) then discard it and replace it with bath 2, which now becomes the new bath one. Mix a new bath 2. This cycle can be repeated 4 times. The advantage of two-bath fixing is that bath one does the lion's share of the fixing, even though by-products build up in the fixer that would damage the print if not fixed further. Bath 2 finishes things off, converting those by-products to water-soluble compounds easily and not affecting its capacity much (which is why it can be used as bath 1 later), and ensuring that the print is fixed to optimum permanence standards.
The fixing times you use for fiber-base prints will depend on the fixer you choose. Conventional (mixed from powder) fixers are sodium thiosulfate based and require longer times, usually 5-10 minutes. Rapid fixers (mixed from liquids) work faster. Times for these fixers depends on the dilution used. The stronger "film-strength" dilution is used by Ilford in its optimum permanence sequence and has fixing times around 1 minute. The weaker "paper-strength" dilution needs times of 2-3 minutes. So, it's important to know what fixer you are using and what dilution. In other words, read the directions.
Equally important is not overusing your fixer! If you want optimum permanence for your prints, then 10 8x10-inch prints per liter of fixer with a single-bath regime is all you get. You can go up to around 40 8x10s per liter if you just need "commercial" permanence (usually this is a lifespan of just a few years compared to the many decades for optimally processed prints). With a two-bath regime, one is fixing for optimum permanence. Capacity there is around 40 8x10s per liter of bath 1 (note, you've got bath 2 as well, which means you get roughly 20 8x10s per liter total, double that of the single-bath regime, but with longer fixing and washing times).
Do read and digest the Ilford tech sheet on Rapid Fixer here: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1833/product/711/ . It's well worth the read. Pay attention to the difference in "commercial" capacities and the capacities listed in the section on fixing for optimum permanence.
Hope this helps,
Doremus
You will need to wash your fiber prints longer than RC, but unless this work needs to be archival (which can have a lifespan of over 100 years), don't worry about 2-bath fixing. Remember, you're still in school and learning. Your prints will last long enough with a single bath.
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Nicholas Lindan
Advertiser
The population can be divided into simplifiers and complicators - I'm by nature a complicator, but every now and then I like to take a walk on the simple side.
In these circumstances, making a print for a school assignment, there need be no difference between processing fiber paper and RC paper. The print only has to last for a week - long enough for the instructor to grade it. A fiber print processed in RC fashion will have no problem satisfying this requirement and may outlast us all (which an RC print probably won't).
That doesn't mean that the OP can't/shouldn't do the full dress process. It's just that it isn't required for this assignment - though you may have to tell the prof. you did it all by the book, since I imagine that's part of the point of the assignment. What, me cheat? Write the whole of a semester of physics on the back of a slide rule? I never!
The only exception is the problem of drying the print without curl. As suggested, if the university has a real print drier then this is the obvious solution. At university when my 'home' darkroom was a closet under the stairs and I had to dry fiber prints at home with minimal equipment I would pat them dry with a bath towel and place them face up on the carpet (sans pets in the room). Prints put out in the evening would be dry in the morning with just some curl up at the edges. To take the last of the curl out I would dampen the back of the prints with a barely wet sponge and put them face down on a clean surface. I covered the back of the prints with some newspaper and stacked books on the whole to hold the print flat. If in a hurry I would iron the back of the print with a steam iron set on it's lowest setting - but then creasing the prints was always a danger. I used both these methods in university.
For the flattest of prints you can dry mount them. You will need some artist's board (don't bother wasting money on 'museum board' for class assignments) and dry mount tissue. A regular old iron (sans steam) works well enough. Cover the face of the print with a tea towel when ironing. Spray 'mounting adhesive' may have improved over the years enough that it will hold a fiber print flat - I haven't tried doing this for many, many years when it decidedly didn't.
In these circumstances, making a print for a school assignment, there need be no difference between processing fiber paper and RC paper. The print only has to last for a week - long enough for the instructor to grade it. A fiber print processed in RC fashion will have no problem satisfying this requirement and may outlast us all (which an RC print probably won't).
That doesn't mean that the OP can't/shouldn't do the full dress process. It's just that it isn't required for this assignment - though you may have to tell the prof. you did it all by the book, since I imagine that's part of the point of the assignment. What, me cheat? Write the whole of a semester of physics on the back of a slide rule? I never!
The only exception is the problem of drying the print without curl. As suggested, if the university has a real print drier then this is the obvious solution. At university when my 'home' darkroom was a closet under the stairs and I had to dry fiber prints at home with minimal equipment I would pat them dry with a bath towel and place them face up on the carpet (sans pets in the room). Prints put out in the evening would be dry in the morning with just some curl up at the edges. To take the last of the curl out I would dampen the back of the prints with a barely wet sponge and put them face down on a clean surface. I covered the back of the prints with some newspaper and stacked books on the whole to hold the print flat. If in a hurry I would iron the back of the print with a steam iron set on it's lowest setting - but then creasing the prints was always a danger. I used both these methods in university.
For the flattest of prints you can dry mount them. You will need some artist's board (don't bother wasting money on 'museum board' for class assignments) and dry mount tissue. A regular old iron (sans steam) works well enough. Cover the face of the print with a tea towel when ironing. Spray 'mounting adhesive' may have improved over the years enough that it will hold a fiber print flat - I haven't tried doing this for many, many years when it decidedly didn't.
3M makes a spray adhesive called Photo Mount. It is permanent and will hold a fiber print flat--that is one that has at least been left under a stack of books to take out any roller-coaster waves it may have acquired during drying. Once in position, cover the photo with some bond paper or tracing paper and use a hand roller (brayer) or the edge of an acrylic drafting triangle to make sure the bond is even and the corners are well tacked down.
What I don't get is how you can say that I'm "Fixing for half the time in half strength fixer"
I know I'm repeating myself but I fix for a timed 60 seconds in Ilford Rapid Fixer 1:4. That is exactly the dilution and time Ilford recommends for fibre paper. Where are you getting this idea that I'm using half strength fixer???
MattKing
Moderator
As my RC prints from the 1970s are still fine, I remain hopeful that both I and my current RC prints have nothing to worry about in the "short term death" area.
I would make a 12x16 print in exactly the same manner as an 8x10 print.
I am curious why your instructor wants you to make a 12x16 print. That is a 3:4 format, which means that unless you are shooting 645 you are going to have to crop your negative. It also means that your crop will be different than for an 8x10 print which is a 4:5 format. I hope you have a negative for which a 3:4 crop results in a strong image.
Why do photographers use print ratios different than their viewfinder ratios? When you look through your 35mm camera viewfinder, are you making mental composition adjustments for a predetermined print size (4x5, 5x7, 8x10, 11x14)?
I am curious why your instructor wants you to make a 12x16 print. That is a 3:4 format, which means that unless you are shooting 645 you are going to have to crop your negative. It also means that your crop will be different than for an 8x10 print which is a 4:5 format. I hope you have a negative for which a 3:4 crop results in a strong image.
Why do photographers use print ratios different than their viewfinder ratios? When you look through your 35mm camera viewfinder, are you making mental composition adjustments for a predetermined print size (4x5, 5x7, 8x10, 11x14)?
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Go here. https://www.ilfordphoto.com/technical-downloads/technical-data-sheets/#photographic-paper
Follow instructions for Ilford Classic fiberbase paper.
If you want the print really flat you need to mount.
In the old days single weight paper and soaking in print flattening solution then drying (not over drying) on a big Pako drum dryer produced reasonably flat prints.
Way back to keep film from curling it would have a AgX/gelatin coating on one side, plain gelatin on the other.
I love fiberbase paper, I love the latest version of Ilford RC too.
Follow instructions for Ilford Classic fiberbase paper.
If you want the print really flat you need to mount.
In the old days single weight paper and soaking in print flattening solution then drying (not over drying) on a big Pako drum dryer produced reasonably flat prints.
Way back to keep film from curling it would have a AgX/gelatin coating on one side, plain gelatin on the other.
I love fiberbase paper, I love the latest version of Ilford RC too.
Thanks appreciated
Thanks for all the info. Appreciated.
I’ll do my work prints and contact sheets at home then I’ll try and do the rest at college. I don’t think I’ve got the kit to do finer at home. The washing process etc to stop contamination. I thought maybe buying a hosepipe and washing the prints in the bathroom.
I’ll see.
Thanks for the advice.
I tend to take notes of the tonal Values for dodging and burning. I’ll start measuring etc too.
Thanks for that.
I’ve noticed fiber tends to bend and curl a lot.
Is there a limited time scale after drying before pressing..? For example if I did some fiber work at home and the prints dry, would it be too late to take them to college to press a few days later? Or would they spoil? I’m in once a week and it’s a 150 mile round trip (75 miles there and back).
Thanks, we have a large hot press.
Thanks
I’m only in one day a week and there are quite a few students. Time is limited. I do think it’s good to get a broader spectrum of information and advice though. This forum has been very helpful
Thanks
Thanks
Thanks for that. Yeah good idea scanning the negs. I can evaluate them closer in photoshop.
That would save time.
Thanks for the info.
It’s just the brief we got. I have to submit what’s required, but yeah it doesn’t make sense.
My negs are 7x6. I hope there isn’t much to crop.
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