Fiber Paper Discussion

[Richard Jepsen]

For me, reductionism utilizing generous white space emphasized the charcoal look. Now I'm curious about matte papers.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Yesterday I visited with a friend who years ago converted his workflow to digital. He is a skilled digital printer and has several gelatin silver prints in the National Portrait Gallery, Washington DC. Looking at his B&W inkjets and gelatin silver prints I was struck at the rich tonality of fiber B&W paper. I wish I could get the shadow detail he does but I love the analog workflow & look of B&W silver prints viewed in the hand. Viewing the comparison I became more energized to print in the darkroom.

That brings me to GALERIE, a premium neutral tone paper.

Has anyone been able to warm up GALERIE or semi-split tone it?

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Yesterday I visited with a friend who years ago converted his workflow to digital. He is a skilled digital printer and has several gelatin silver prints in the National Portrait Gallery, Washington DC. Looking at his B&W inkjets and gelatin silver prints I was struck at the rich tonality of fiber B&W paper. I wish I could get the shadow detail he does but I love the analog workflow & look of B&W silver prints viewed in the hand.

That brings me to GALERIE. I have limited experience with the paper, maybe 100 sheets total. I tend to like warmish mid - higher tones and cooler shadows. My experience indicates GALERIE is not going to have this look.

Has anyone been able to warm up GALERIE or to semi split tone it?

I have limited experience with it too, but from what I've used Galerie (mostly G3), it mostly produces an increase of Dmax with selenium alone. It's super beautiful this way, though. When you use indirect toners (indirect = bleach first), it takes on the toners beautifully, in a way similar to MGIV fiber, but I find it a bit more colorful. Then when you add a second toner on top it really comes alive.
If you can manage to live with Grade2 and Grade3 paper alone, and find grades in between by adjusting your developer, Galerie is hard to beat. I remember viewing the prints of a talented, yet very private, photographer from Minneapolis. I met her once, and was never able to find her again to continue our conversation. She used a Minox 35GT camera, shot only Ilford XP2-Super film, and printed everything on Galerie 3 and toned in Kodak Selenium 1+3, at 85*F and for several minutes. The prints were lucious, delicate, beautiful, and very rich in their tonality. Her printing skills were magnificent. I can't afford using Galerie continuously, or I probably would be using it more.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Unfortunately, Galerie is pricy. What happens when KRST is warmed to 85. I assume it tones faster.

 

[kevs]

Oh yes, I do remember trying MGIV Matte. As mentioned, it had charcoal like accents. It looked good with high key images.

Dead matte papers look great behind glass because you only get one reflection, whereas with glossy papers you'll get two. Glass also increases the apparent dmax and contrast of the print, but you'll lose the charcoal drawing look.

IMO, its a shame that Ilford doesn't make Galerie in matte any longer, but Multigrade IV is really nice toned in selenium if you like cool blue-black tones, and it does split-tone nicely in sulphide/selenium providing you either sulphide-tone first, or you have a very good eye to catch the subtle change in selenium before it reaches the higher mid-tones. Selenium does 'cool' the sulphide toner though, i don't know why.

Matte MGIV FB also seems more susceptible to damage from poor handling, uneven drying etc; that said, treated properly you probably won't notice any problem - just don't let water pool on the surface as it dries!

Cheers,
kevs

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Dead matte papers look great behind glass because you only get one reflection, whereas with glossy papers you'll get two. Glass also increases the apparent dmax and contrast of the print, but you'll lose the charcoal drawing look.

Paul Strand was famous for varnishing his matt prints for added brilliance.

http://www.photoquotes.com/ShowQuotes.aspx?id=112&name=Strand,Paul

While categorized as a glossy paper Galerie is less so. Galerie's paper support tint is not as bright-white as ADOX Fine Print Variotone Premium VC FB Warmtone. The image tone is just slightly warmer than MGIV fiber. The paper surface is attractive and smooth.

What happens if you lightly tone Galerie in Agfa Varadon? Is Varadon still available? I have read Varadon is a polysulfide toner so there may be something commercially similar if Varadon is not produced.

Where I'm going with my toning question is the possibility of using Galerie and introducing a hint of tonal complexity warmer than selenium toning without obvious tints of pink, red, green, yellow.

This link may be useful to folks

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Paper/paper.html

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Unfortunately, Galerie is pricy. What happens when KRST is warmed to 85. I assume it tones faster.

That's correct. Faster.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

I'm going to revive this post as I'm looking again for a warm toned paper. After a 4 year break I started printing again using Ilford Classic. Classic has a higher d-max, higher speed, little to no dry down, prints detail at 1/3 or more higher zone, and produces a sharper image than multi-grade IV. The improvement in sharpness is so noticeable I (gasp) started to not tone the final print. It makes for a considerable savings in time and one can always tone later. However, I prefer a neutral to warm paper with a white base. I see Berger is back selling papers. Question, Is Bergger's Prestige CB style FB warm tone a rebrand of FomaBrom Variant IV which has the same 280 g weight and red safelight requirements? Any reports on the Berger papers? I'm familiar with Ilford's WT, a super fine paper, but I'm looking for paper with a tone similar to EMAKS or tilt towards brown-grey.

 

[mnemosyne]

I'm going to revive this post as I'm looking again for a warm toned paper. After a 4 year break I started printing again using Ilford Classic. Classic has a higher d-max, higher speed, little to no dry down, prints detail at 1/3 or more higher zone, and produces a sharper image than multi-grade IV. The improvement in sharpness is so noticeable I (gasp) started to not tone the final print. It makes for a considerable savings in time and one can always tone later. However, I prefer a neutral to warm paper with a white base. I see Berger is back selling papers. Question, Is Bergger's Prestige CB style FB warm tone a rebrand of FomaBrom Variant IV which has the same 280 g weight and red safelight requirements? Any reports on the Berger papers? I'm familiar with Ilford's WT, a super fine paper, but I'm looking for paper with a tone similar to EMAKS or tilt towards brown-grey.

Hm, I thought Bergger papers were manufactured by Harman, but I may be wrong. Somone else probably knows. The Foma WT offering (Fomatone) has a distinctly warm tone on a warm base, so probably not what you are after. Slavich Bromportrait is neutral to warm (graded, not as warm as Fomatone) on a white base, but the paper is out of production (some stocks remain). You could have a look at Adox Variotone, which is also a WT paper on a white base.
http://www.adox.de/Photo/photopaper/variotone-fibre-based-paper/

 

[RalphLambrecht]

This Spring I ordered 50 shts of 11x14 EMAKS Grade 3, my base paper. Lucky me! I'm disappointed EMAKS is gone. So I'm back looking for another paper. I've used the following papers and note some characteristics. I have extensive experience with Ilford WT which seems the all-rounder for WT papers.


Ilford WT - buff paper base which some may feel is too yellow, does not split tone like Bergger WT
Ilfobrom Galerie - clean white paper base, long scale, strong blacks, smooth tonal changes, lower contrast in low tones vs EMAKS, better highlight separation than EMAKs, print tone somewhat pencil-like, resists fogging under bright OC safelight, a hint of WT until toned.
ADOX Fine Print Variotone - white paper base, shorter scale than Ilfobrom, more a grey tone, readily tones with resulting tone shifts, red safelight
ADOX 110 - (very glossy) warm grey tone like Agfa MCC, use for thin negs
Fomabrom Graded - paper base slightly more buff than EMAKS graded, neutral tone, not as sharp as EMAKS
Fomabrom Variant VCFB - paper base and emulsion tone similar to Fomabrom Graded
Fomatone MG Classic VC WT - very buff to yellow paper base, emulsion tone yellow vs mushroom/brown
Fomatone MG Classic Fomabrom Variant IV MG -VC FB 123 Velvet - interesting surface with warmish gray tone, OC compatible

Any thoughts on current papers still available??

very old thread but, I'm still a fan of Ilford MGIV FB/glossy

 

[RalphLambrecht]

This Spring I ordered 50 shts of 11x14 EMAKS Grade 3, my base paper. Lucky me! I'm disappointed EMAKS is gone. So I'm back looking for another paper. I've used the following papers and note some characteristics. I have extensive experience with Ilford WT which seems the all-rounder for WT papers.


Ilford WT - buff paper base which some may feel is too yellow, does not split tone like Bergger WT
Ilfobrom Galerie - clean white paper base, long scale, strong blacks, smooth tonal changes, lower contrast in low tones vs EMAKS, better highlight separation than EMAKs, print tone somewhat pencil-like, resists fogging under bright OC safelight, a hint of WT until toned.
ADOX Fine Print Variotone - white paper base, shorter scale than Ilfobrom, more a grey tone, readily tones with resulting tone shifts, red safelight
ADOX 110 - (very glossy) warm grey tone like Agfa MCC, use for thin negs
Fomabrom Graded - paper base slightly more buff than EMAKS graded, neutral tone, not as sharp as EMAKS
Fomabrom Variant VCFB - paper base and emulsion tone similar to Fomabrom Graded
Fomatone MG Classic VC WT - very buff to yellow paper base, emulsion tone yellow vs mushroom/brown
Fomatone MG Classic Fomabrom Variant IV MG -VC FB 123 Velvet - interesting surface with warmish gray tone, OC compatible

Any thoughts on current papers still available??

very old thread but, I'm still a fan of Ilford MGIV FB/glossy

 

[sepiareverb]

I too am a big fan of the ADOX Variotone. Very malleable image color through development.

I have also been printing a little bit on the Bergger and like it very much.

 

[spijker]

I too am a big fan of the ADOX Variotone. Very malleable image color through development.

+1. I like warm tones on a true (not creamy) white paper base. It tones nice with a selenium toner.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Yes, an old but informative thread. Ralph, I'm surprised you prefer the old Multigrade IV to Classic. After printing a 100 sheets of Classic there is a noticeable improvement in many categories. Papers are different in surface, tone and scale. A useful attribute but paper differences make for a learning curve.

I miss the 2011 versions of Oriental or Berger WT . I'm grateful Ilford manufactures high quality papers and with Brits love of tradition Ilford may be the last coating line standing.

Back to Bergger. This new emulsion requires a red safe light which in the DR I rent is available but limited. The safe time before risk of fogging is very short...2 min. Does anyone have observations on Bergger Variable CB WT? Especially interested in the print color and toning in KRST.

 

[silveror0]

...Ralph, I'm surprised you prefer the old Multigrade IV to Classic. After printing a 100 sheets of Classic there is a noticeable improvement in many categories...

+1 I used MGIV for years, but when I got my first box of Classic and did some tests I was VERY impressed with the improvements.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Classic is superb. The paper has virtually no dry down. Classic is Kentmere sharp next to Multigrade IV...one reason I never used MGIV except for their warmtone. Classic prints a 1/3-1/2 step higher zone than Galerie but Galerie renders the lower scale with darker tones. Galerie image tone tilts more warm/grey than Classic until its toned in KRST. Classic is more similar to Galerie than other papers marketed 4 years ago when I stopped printing. Galerie has noticeably more latitude than Classic which is a Galerie advantage.

Any reviews on Bergger WT?

 

[Ben 4]

I too am very impressed with Ilford Classic. So where are people finding Variotone these days? I can't find it listed anywhere in the US in stock.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Today I printed on Galerie, Classic and Ilford WT. Ilford WT has the appearance of open shadows and a zone 3-5 rich tonality.
Wish the paper base was a buff white like Foma 111. Regardless, its a great paper.

 

[sepiareverb]

I too am very impressed with Ilford Classic. So where are people finding Variotone these days? I can't find it listed anywhere in the US in stock.

I order from Fotoimpex once a year or so.

 

[LarsAC]

Probably need to try Classic FB matte soon. Printed my kids on Galerie 20x24 in matte and love that stuff.

Lars

 

[Paul Howell]

Back to Bergger. This new emulsion requires a red safe light which in the DR I rent is available but limited. The safe time before risk of fogging is very short...2 min. Does anyone have observations on Bergger Variable CB WT? Especially interested in the print color and toning in KRST.[/QUOTE]

Might be rebranded Slavich, all of Slavich's papers need a red safelight, as far I know all the others use OC, Slavich has added VC papers, have not use them. I have couple of packs of Slavich warm tone, warm but not too brown, then again I have examples to compare as I print on cold tone glossy.

 

[K-G]

I have done some printing with the Berger CB ( warmtone ) and with a warmtone developer ( Ilford ) it gives a slightly warmer tone than ADOX MCC 110 and almost, but not quite , as warm as Ilford MG WT . On the other hand I feel that Berger has brighter white than Ilford. None of the papers comes close to the warm tone that Forte Poly Wamtone could give you. If you want a real warmtone to your prints, I think you need to tone them. I have tried some sepia toning but not enough to give a verdict. From my limited experience of Berger I find that both CB ( warm tone ) and NB ( neutral ) are top class papers , on the same level as ADOX and Ilford. From what I have read over the years, I don't think Berger is rebranded Slavich but manufactured by Ilford/Harman to Berger specifications. Normally I have both red and orange safelight in my darkroom , also when using Berger, and that has not caused any problems. The best thing is to order some paper and try it out under your own conditions and while you fill in the order form, why not add a package of ADOX MCC 110 and one of Ilford MG WT . None of them will make you disappointed . Good luck !

Karl-Gustaf

 

[esearing]

Bergger CB has a slight edge over Ilford MGFB WT to me, but not enough to justify the higher price. Both tone in Selenium and Thiourea very well. Nelsons gold toner has a beautiful brown tone on both of these as well. Ilford MGFB classic is now my standard when I want deeper blacks. I tried classic with PF130 recently and had great results. I like Ethol LPD 1:3 or PF 106 developers for the warmtone papers.

I have been wanting to try the Silver Eagle and Oriental papers.

 

[sepiareverb]

I have a bunch of ND filtration in my over sink safelights, which are OC. I’ve not had fogging on Slavich Unibrom, Bergger or any paper. Coin tested.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

KG, before I moved to the 2010 available Oriental and Bergger warm tone papers I printed on Forte PWT. What a loss. After Bergger became unavailable and Oriental changed their supplier...their new WT was similar to Foma WT with a too warm paper tint....Emaks became my base paper. Emaks had a welcome 280 or 300 gsm weight. Emaks was a flat paper with little curl. If one wants a warmer tone than Classic on a heavier paper the choice is the 280 gsm Fomabrom 111 graded (neutral/warm) emulsion or Bergger CM WT.

Esearing....I tested Classic in Ilford Bromophen and LPD 1:3. Virtually no tone difference between the two however LPD was a hint more contrasty dumping a fraction of shadow detail. Not worth switching paper developers if you are looking to warm up Classic with Bromo.

I have some experience with Adox Variotone years ago and thought it nice. I would likely move to Ilford WT vs Adox.