Fiber and Glossy, a contradiction?

[bvy]

A glossy sheen on fiber paper always seemed contradictory to me. Glossy seems more naturally an RC surface. I'm working with the newly available direct positive paper from Ilford which only comes in fiber and glossy -- neither of which I'm used to working with. I'm having a hell of a time drying and flattening it without the glossy surface showing off every wrinkle, dimple, stress mark, etc. from the drying process. Looking past that though, it has a surprisingly attractive quality to my eyes.

Any tips for working with it and what makes this combination shine?

 

[wiltw]

Back in the 1960s, fiber base glossy paper was dried to a very high gloss by using what were called 'ferrotyping tins' which were chromed metal flat sheets used in conjunction with squeegee'ing or rolling the (gelatin) emulsion side to the chrome face of the tin, and letting air dry or faster drying on a heat dryer.

Unfortunately I have no direct experience with FB glossy products of today.

 

[Ian Grant]

As above you can glaze Glossy FB papers, but you can also air dry with a bit of heat or steam the dry prints to bring out additional gloss.

Ian

 

[Sirius Glass]

I use a drum dryer and I do not have those problems. How are you drying your prints?

 

[Doc W]

Let's just compare FB glossy and RC glossy to avoid getting into comparing textured surfaces (such as pearl). FB glossy is never as shiny as RC paper because it has more texture and with any textured surface, the light it reflects is more diffuse. Some folks really like the crispness of a glossy RC print but you will not get that with glossy FB (unless perhaps you ferrotype it, a lost art I think). It will be glossy, but not like RC.

As for drying FB prints, welcome to the world of potato-chip prints. When the humidity in my darkroom is low (mostly during the winter), it is a real wrestling match with prints. After washing, I put them on screens to dry and they turn into Pringles (or in Canada, Miss Vickie's Chips). I reduce most of that with a few minutes in a dry-mount press. I don't mount them at this point but just use the heat to get them a little more flat. Then I pile the prints, separated by paper, under a very clean board with a 25 lb weight on top. After a few days they come out relatively (not perfectly) flat. In my opinion, the only completely flat FB print is one that has been dry-mounted! And when it is dry-mounted properly, it will have a glow that you cannot get from RC. Just an opinion. I am not prepared to defend that in the parking lot.

There are lots of posts on drying prints.​

 

[chiller]

Clean a piece of glass "very well" then wash it and your print with diluted wetting agent and place your wet print face down on the glass. Run the back of a ruler over the print to remove air bubbles and "all being well" when it has dried the surface will be high gloss. Personally I had a very high success rate with this method, however learn the process with something that is not your "Moonrise over Hernandez".

Mind you, unglazed FB glossy is beautiful.

 

[1kgcoffee]

Clean a piece of glass "very well" then wash it and your print with diluted wetting agent and place your wet print face down on the glass. Run the back of a ruler over the print to remove air bubbles and "all being well" when it has dried the surface will be high gloss. Personally I had a very high success rate with this method, however learn the process with something that is not your "Moonrise over Hernandez".

Mind you, unglazed FB glossy is beautiful.

How much photo flo would you use in this dilution?

 

[Sirius Glass]

How much photo flo would you use in this dilution?

PhotoFlo is for film, not prints.

 

[hoffy]

PhotoFlo is for film, not prints.

I am sure you could use dish-washing liquid instead, but I think I would rather use Photoflo in this instance.

 

[chiller]

In our lab back in the '70s we used a glazing agent which I think was produced by Ilford but for my own glazed prints at home I used either wetting agent or as Hoffy suggested dish detergent. I cannot remember the ratio but a few drops to a 10x8 tray seems to ring a bell. Don't try to peel the photo off the glass as it has to be 100% dry to release correctly.

 

[tedr1]

As others have already described the high gloss that is familiar from RC papers is achieved by glazing FB gloss paper. This is usually part of the print drying process, glass and heated shiny metal plates are common methods. It produces a mirror-like gloss. Blemishes are sometimes a problem. Also the print can become adhered to the plate and removing it may destroy the print and damage the plate. I find air dried glossy FB (without glazing) is a very satisfying surface.

Tetenal used to make a special liquid for use with glazing plates, I think it was called Glanzol.

 

[ic-racer]

There was a recent thread about matt surface papers: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/matte-photo-paper-and-contrast.154468/#post-2001161

 

[Nodda Duma]

For the techniques which press the print surface to glass or shiny metal, how do you ensure the surface won't stick after the print has dried?

 

[NJH]

I have another question. Do you tape the print onto the glass with masking tape, as per a recent thread about drying prints flat?

 

[wiltw]

For the techniques which press the print surface to glass or shiny metal, how do you ensure the surface won't stick after the print has dried?

Originally, prints were simply rolled/squeegee'd onto clean polished ferrotype tins without special solutions. Kodak offered Print Flattening Solution to help keep prints flat and keep them from lifting off ferrotype plates.
Drying prints to be sent to the printer for our high school newspaper, I never used any special solution in conjunction with ferrotype plates and a print dryer.

If you did use a solution, after the prints were washed and just before they were placed on the drum, they were immersed in a solution called 'ferrotype release agent'. Before such a product became available on the market, a solution of glycerin and Photoflo was used by some.

 

[BMbikerider]

PhotoFlo is for film, not prints.

Any photographic wetting agent including photo flow can be used but NOT washing up detergent, it contains far too much salt. I have glazed prints onto both glass and chrome sheets. With glass you have to let them air dry, any attempt to use a source of heat, e.g. a hairdryer will risk the print sticking to the glass sheet.

Using a rule to squeeze the print onto the glazing sheet is a new one on me, I used a roller designed for the task but a ruler pwith enough pressure will probably do equally well. adequate overall pressure and a thoroughly soaked print is the secret.(Plus a bit of wetting agent).

A heated bed with a chrome sheet is easier but not as good as glass. The glass I used was not ordinary glass but a sheet of 1/4" thick sheet of what used to be called in UK - 'plate glass' or nowadays 'Float Glass' which has a super smooth blemish free surface. Also trying to remove a print from either source will result in what we used to call 'Oyster Shell' marks, but the beauty is, if you get the marks, just soak the print again and re-apply to whatever surface.

In the absence of float or plate glass a good mirror will also do the same job perfectly well.

If the glass or chrome sheet has any defects it WILL show on the finished print and possibly they will stick. Been there, seen it, done it and know the pitfalls.

 

[ic-racer]

I still remember the smell of Pakosol on a hot print-dryer apron...

 

[chiller]

Now that you mention it
It is truly extraordinary the actual physical smells your memory can retrieve.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Gloss is a relative expression. Neither FB or RC prints are truly glossy, even ferrotyped. For a high gloss you need a mylar base like Cibachrome and Fuji Supergloss, and a few experimental b&w "papers" which were never marketed. Overcoating a print with a glossy butyl acetate or acrylic lacquer, or shiny wax, is only a short-term solution. They'll yellow or craze with age.

 

[mshchem]

I still remember the smell of Pakosol on a hot print-dryer apron...

Yes, I have a Pako drum dryer but haven't ferrotyped (glazed) in decades. Pakosol (or similar) was what all the fellows used. You need to have the print dry completely with fabric holding the print down on the tin or glass etc. Otherwise the edges will dry first, and release first, and you will get "cockle marks" on the print. Single weight paper was always ferrotyped, super high gloss. Pakosol is 95% HEXYLENE GLYCOL CAS: 107-41-5. It was diluted with water before use. Helped release the print and the residual glycol in the paper base helped reduce curling. F surface (Kodak nomenclature) glossy DW paper air dried is beautiful.
I have an Ilford Ilfospeed dryer for RC, with the newest Ilford RC papers it makes outstanding prints. It has so much radiant heat from the quartz elements that the gelatin melts slightly, results are amazing.
Best Mike

 

[BMbikerider]

Actually you have set me thinking. I have some 7x5 Kentmere glossy fibre based and will try to make a couple of prints and glaze one and compare it to the unglazed version to see if the difference can be made to be visible on a scan.

 

[BMbikerider]

Gloss is a relative expression. Neither FB or RC prints are truly glossy, even ferrotyped. For a high gloss you need a mylar base like Cibachrome and Fuji Supergloss, and a few experimental b&w "papers" which were never marketed. Overcoating a print with a glossy butyl acetate or acrylic lacquer, or shiny wax, is only a short-term solution. They'll yellow or craze with age.

A good glass based glazed B&W print is as good as or even possibly better than a CIBA Chrome, it is just the difficulty in getting that perfect 100% gloss finish. It isn't easy. Whatever floats your boat it doesn't really matter does it. Besides Cibachrome is no longer available. Pure semantics, it is one persons choice alongside another.

 

[Ian Grant]

For the techniques which press the print surface to glass or shiny metal, how do you ensure the surface won't stick after the print has dried?

Glazing fluid was the best, it was made from ox gall and smelt quite horrible.

Even with RC papers heat drying will give a higher gloss, Drew is right that the highest gloss was with Ciba/Ilfochrome due to the Mylar base.

Ian

 

[Louis Nargi]

I have used the steaming technique to add a little more gloss on the fiber paper and I think it adds just enough.

 

[tessar]

My personal favorite is unglazed double-weight glossy FB paper. I've always used good old blotter rolls for drying, shows my age. Loading the rolls in the opposite direction of the paper's curl works well for flattening purposes. I haven't found an RC paper yet that dries with a similar surface.