Ferrotype polish - what is it and where to get it?

Hello,

In my previous question about print dryer as well as in the dryer instructions itself I was recommended to use "Ferrotype polish".

As English is not my first language I might miss something. But I have searched web and the online photo sellers exactly for the words "Ferrotype polish" and I have found nothing. Nobody is selling it under this name.

So my questions are:

• What is the ferrotype polish? Where and under what name could I buy it?
• Is "stainless steel polish" the same as ferrotype polish? Can I use it to polish the chromed plates on my dryer without doing any harm?

Thank you for your advice, Stefan

It was a polish one used on ferrotype plates that were placed in the drier, or just left with the print squeezed on them until the print dryed and then popped off the plate.

No, i wouldn't just use any stainless steel polish as the ingredients may not be good for the paper.

Try Porters. they carry a lot of old equipment from the past and they may have some.

xpista said:

Hello,

In my previous question about print dryer as well as in the dryer instructions itself I was recommended to use "Ferrotype polish".
[*]What is the ferrotype polish? Where and under what name could I buy it?
Thank you for your advice, Stefan

Click to expand...

Stefan,

In spite of English not being your first language, I see that your address is in Washington state. If you are currently in the U.S., you can find Bon Ami cake soap. Note well: cake soap, not Bon Ami powder (you might have to order it .. just google Bon Ami and call their headquarters for ordering info. A case —which lasts two lifetimes!— cost around $14.00 five years ago.

Find some older photo books —earlier than the 1970's— for good hints and instructions. Basically, with Bon Ami, you just make a paste of the soap and water in your hand, and apply it in a circular motion all over the plate. Rinse with warm water, then dry with a very soft cloth ( I used to use a baby diaper --clean, of course ;-).

Afterwards, to be sure to avoid sticking, it's wise to apply a polish —although it's not absolutely necessary. I believe Edwal still makes one specifically for ferrotype plates. I don't remember the name of the basic polishing fluid ingredient, but it's flammable and evaporates quickly when wiped off during polishing. I believe that carborundum also works, but don't take my word for it. All I remember is that a slightly waxy surface must be left on the plate.

As well, pay attention to the way you treat and wash the prints before drying. Improperly fixed prints may stick to the plate. Pako used to make (still makes?) a solution call Pakosol to treat prints just before applying to a ferrotype plate.

I live in Europe and can't get Bon Ami, so if you buy a case of it and it works well for you, don't forget to send me a couple of bars of soap instead of a card for Christmas! ;-)

I'll add this more as a question and partly as a joke about failing memories... But every time I think about using my old drier 30+ years ago, a mental image of "Glass Wax" appears in my mind. Being a bit poor at the time and willing to try justy about anything, it's quite possible I did try that product. It's also just as possible that it was on the list of things to never use? ;-) But I thought I'd mention it in case any other old timers might remember?

The Edwal Ferrotype polish was a very thin wax. Too much and everything would stick like glue. A tiny drop in the middlle worked out to the edges of the tin worked very well. There indeed was a glass or floor wax that some used on their tins, but I never tried it. There are several very thin (watery) waxes I see in stores that might work. A bottle of will last a life time and a half! Try it in a tiny amount. I woulden't touch one of my tins with Bon Ami
I believe it is far to abbrasive. But again I have not (and won't) try it.

Good luck. Charlie..........

During the many years I used ferrotype plates, I never bought special polish.
Simply wash them well with a good bar soap, rinse well in hot water and then rub with a soft cloth on which you have poured a small amount of glycerin.
The prints will gloss beautifully and evenly with no dull spots.
Jim

Charles Webb said:

I woulden't touch one of my tins with Bon Ami
I believe it is far to abbrasive. But again I have not (and won't) try it.
Good luck. Charlie..........

Click to expand...

Charlie, if you're talking about BonAmi cleanser, you're right. That's why I specified Bon Ami CAKE SOAP —which you'll find recommended in old photo books all over the place, including Eastman Kodak's.

Don't forget Bon Ami's advertising slogan with the little yellow chick on the label: "Hasn't Scratched Yet" !

xpista said:

Hello,

In my previous question about print dryer as well as in the dryer instructions itself I was recommended to use "Ferrotype polish".

As English is not my first language I might miss something. But I have searched web and the online photo sellers exactly for the words "Ferrotype polish" and I have found nothing. Nobody is selling it under this name.

So my questions are:

• What is the ferrotype polish? Where and under what name could I buy it?
• Is "stainless steel polish" the same as ferrotype polish? Can I use it to polish the chromed plates on my dryer without doing any harm?

Thank you for your advice, Stefan

Click to expand...

I felt certain that I had seen something on this in the book by John Tinsley called The Rotary Processor Manual. I checked and here it is:
For help the gloss and release the glazed print use a glazing solution. A popular one is a 1% solution of ox gall in distilled water. Treat the prints in the solution just before glazing. Unfortunately he doesn't say how much to use but I am assuming that ox gall comes in one strength and a 1% solution means 1cc of ox gall to a 1000cc or litre of distilled water. So 2cc in two litres etc.

Polishing the glazing plate: 50 grammes of beeswax in a litre of turpentine.

The book was only written in 1992 so not that long ago. I don't use fibre paper so have never tried to get ox gall but old hardware stores may know of it. It sounds like something hardware suppliers obtained from a slaughter house. I had never heard of ox gall but then again there lots of thing I haven't heard of.

Beeswax and turpentine are available from any hardware store. Well in the U.K. anyway and the U.S. can't be much different.

The book's author was a real fan of fibre paper and says he used these things so I'd assume they work well.

Pentaxuser

Interesting...

Herbivores, in general, don't have gall bladders. Gall is only useful for digesting fat, which grass tends not to contain a lot of...

By the way: 1% is 10cc in one liter, or 1cc in 100ml. 1ml=1cc , 10ml =1/100 liter.

Hi there,

For a glaze / wax for the plates you could try "RainX", a polymer glaze for windsheilds, available anywhere USA. Dampen a paper towel with it and polish your plate, let it glaze over, wipe off with a damp towel and polish with a soft cloth.

Just a thought.

Ole said:

Interesting...

Herbivores, in general, don't have gall bladders. Gall is only useful for digesting fat, which grass tends not to contain a lot of...

By the way: 1% is 10cc in one liter, or 1cc in 100ml. 1ml=1cc , 10ml =1/100 liter.

Click to expand...

Hi Ole,

Maybe some cows eat meat at night, while we're not watching, 'cause a have a reliable old book with a formula for a "first-class glazing solution" made from oxgall, too.
(could it be 'ox bile' ?.. I don't know the difference. Anyway, here it is:

- prepared oxgall : 12 ml
(the book insinuates that this could be bought, rather than made by the user)

- water: 1 to 2 liters

To use: The prints are soaked in this solution for a minute or two and are then directly laid onto the ferrotype plate or drum surface without intermediate rinsing.

Furthermore, it states:
"Those who do not object to the mess (and smell) may prepare oxgall from gall bladders [here's why I think it may actually be bile] obtained from a butcher or slaughterhouse.

"The fluid from the bladder is mixed with formalin in the proportion of about 2 ozs. of formalin per gallon of gall (12.5 cc's per litre). The mixture is filtered through several thicknesses of butter muslin, after which it is bottled and will keep for a long time"

Before squeegeeing the prints unto the plate (or glass, or drum) you can mix and use the following polish:

- beeswax: 45. g.
- turpentine: 1 liter

OR

- spermaceti wax: 45. g.
- benzol: 1 liter

You rub a few drops on with a soft cloth and polish the surface witha silk rag or a chamois.

Sticking problems generally come from heated drying, compared to natural drying -—where the prints just pop off the plate when they're ready. If memory serves, I think that hardening fixers are better for heated drying and non-hardening fixers are good for natural drying.

You also can prevent sticking by frequent washing of your ferrotype surface, —as I've already mentioned— with Bon Ami CAKE SOAP (NOT Bon Ami cleanser) and warm water. You should rinse and dry thoroughly before polishing.

Filtered water in the print wash is also helpful. It keeps grit off the surface of the print. This grit can often prevent good adhesion. You can also prevent this problem by swabbing the print surface with cotton or a soft sponge after washing.

Kodak at one time gave a recipe for a wax made from a small amount of white paraffin dissolved in benzene. Benzene is nasty stuff, xylene would be a better choice today.

Ole said:

Interesting...

Herbivores, in general, don't have gall bladders. Gall is only useful for digesting fat, which grass tends not to contain a lot of...

By the way: 1% is 10cc in one liter, or 1cc in 100ml. 1ml=1cc , 10ml =1/100 liter.

Click to expand...

Ole. Quite right. As a Scotsman I try and make things very cheaply but the laws of maths operate the same way anywhere in the world.

Pentaxuser

Christopher Nisperos said:

Stefan,

In spite of English not being your first language, I see that your address is in Washington state. If you are currently in the U.S., you can find Bon Ami cake soap. Note well: cake soap, not Bon Ami powder (you might have to order it .. just google Bon Ami and call their headquarters for ordering info. A case —which lasts two lifetimes!— cost around $14.00 five years ago.

Click to expand...

Have been following this thread as I too have a print dryer like this. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Faultless (the maker of) Bon-Ami Cake has been discontinued and they have replaced it with a powder version, that they say is just the same as the cake. It is available at True Value Hardware stores here in Indiana, so I would imagine that it would be available at most TVH's

Here is a link so that you can search for a store by state:

Dead Link Removed


g

Ole said:

Interesting...

Herbivores, in general, don't have gall bladders. Gall is only useful for digesting fat, which grass tends not to contain a lot of...

By the way: 1% is 10cc in one liter, or 1cc in 100ml. 1ml=1cc , 10ml =1/100 liter.

Click to expand...

Bovines do indeed have gall bladers and ox-gal, made from the bile, is a very popular traditional wetting agent and binding medium. Its typically used with watercolors and gouache.

For use as a ferrotyping solution I'd instead turn to a mix of gelatine and something like Tween 20 (although one can surely get away with using Triton-X as found in most photographic wetting solutions).

This is a very old thread, but I am going to bump it because it's a good one and I have another question. I just tried this using Ilford FB Classic Matt paper. I got a glazed look, but it was patchy - too patchy to use. I am going to pick up some beeswax and turpentine tomorrow, but I was wondering if part of the problem is that I was using matt paper. Will this work properly with matt paper as well as the "glossy" stuff?

IIRC there were once black enamel ferrotype plates, in addition to the chrome plated type. Those had to be waxed to prevent prints from sticking.

BobMarvin said:

IIRC there were once black enamel ferrotype plates, in addition to the chrome plated type. Those had to be waxed to prevent prints from sticking.

Click to expand...

Yes

I have a Arkay drum dryer. The emulsion side of the paper is not against the metal plate as it would for ferrotype so this may not apply. The emulsion side of the paper is against the drum apron. I was told to use car wax like Turtle Wax.

Prof_Pixel said:

Yes

Click to expand...

Prof_Pixel, did you intend to reply 'yes' to my question or to BobMarvin's reply?

Matte paper has a matting agent in it that "prevents" forming a glossy image, but it can be ferrotyped giving the result you observed. By partially crushing the matting agent, you get a patchy gloss.

Only glossy papers were intended for ferrotyping, not any of the other surfaces.

And, by his reference to the specific quote, Prof_Pixel (Fred) was answering Bob.

PE

Thanks for the advice PE. I won't rush out and buy wax tomorrow then, I'll wait till I have some gloss paper.

I've been down this road and gave up. Have gotten myself a nice old print dryer that dries on both sides up to 11x14 each and have one ferrotype plate for it.

I have cleaned it immaculately and my results were always the same. The prints look amazing from afar but when observed from a close distance - there are all these holes in it.
I never went down the route of trying to wax it etc though....

See two sample photos I made during the process.

Thanks,
Ben

I have seen more than one reference in the past which described ferrotyping polish as a mix of parafin and benzene; it is mentioned even in a 1911 dental journal!

Some later references list 45-50g of beeswax in 1 liter of turpentine.

I just found a 1985 MSDS sheet for Edwal Ferrotype Polish

More than likely those "holes" are from steam forming pushing the print away from the dryer surface.

I have seen ferrotyped prints turn out well with the old hand fed rotating drum dryers, but not with the canvas clamshell type dryers (I have one). I have never had a good ferrotyped print from the clamshell dryers, though they are great for flattening prints. I would have to conclude that if I can't get a good ferrotyped print out of a clamshell heated dryer, you may not be able to as well. But all is not lost...

If you really want a ferrotyped image the best thing I have found is plexiglass (better than chromed plates even), well cleaned with a tiny amount of wax applied (I use Butcher's Wax). Not too much, not too little. Put a cloth or something over the print to prevent it from drying unevenly (i.e. from the edges) which can make lines on the print when the dry part lifts. If you are using a chrome plate or heated dryer and you hear a "pop" the print will almost always have a line. You really want the print to dry sloooooowly. The static in the plexiglass keeps the print in contact with the surface and the print always comes out perfect if it dries slowly, unless there is a spec of dust on it, then you need to start again, so make sure everything is clean. I use a brayer over the print to press the emulsion into the plexiglass and get the water out, though you could probably use a squeegee as well. I have found it pays to put a little "mustard" into it. When the print is dry you will think it is stuck to the plexi, but it is just the static. I use a guitar pick to loosen the edge, then it peels right off. The only downside to plexi is if you scratch it you can't use it again, so be careful. Make sure you wait for the print to dry as well.

I ferrotyped some papers years ago that weren't glossy to begin with, but they never really came out that well. The only one that sometimes did was Agfa 118 put through one of those super hot manual feed drum dryers. Even glossy papers are a bit of a pain to get a consistent even finish, so stick with the glossy papers. Life is short.

And there you go. That is about all I know that is relevant about getting a successful gloss by ferrotyping. I am probably the only person to ever ferrotype a print on plexiglass. I am sure the first time I did it was more or less a "what the hell, can't be worse" type moment but that was years ago and who knows how I thought of it. It probably involved beer. All my great ideas are beer related.

If you have any questions or I wasn't clear, fire away.