Ferrotype paper drying

[Photopathe]

Hi! I am unable to use the ferrotype technique of drying the paper emulsion side on a plexiglass without those imperfections showing each time (see picture). I use clean unscratched plexiglass and I do get the lustre finish from the technique but always with those patterns. If anyone could advice me on how to best avoid it. Thanks!

 

[koraks]

I tried just about everything I have been able to find out, but I only managed to get a good ferrotyped print once or twice. Either I get the kind of zits you've got, or (more likely) everything just remains stuck together with no way to get the print off the plate. I've tried stainless steel, plexiglass, regular glass/mirrors and some types of film/foil. So in short, I think I don't really have any useful advice to you, other than perhaps take the easy way out and print on glossy RC paper...not quite like a ferrotyped FB print, but it gets close.

Anyway, I'm interested to read what kind of suggestions you'll get; perhaps I'll try my hand at it one of these days again, if I can muster the courage for it.

 

[Sirius Glass]

In the 1960's my friend and I bought a large Ferrotype plate. We got some reasonable prints most of the time, but the effort required begged us to find another way to dry prints. Using plexiglass will not work for Ferrotyping, you must have a Ferrotype plate.

 

[koraks]

Oh yeah, tried one if those too. Stuck together like irreversibly. Even with a ferrotyping liquid I was hinted at by someone on here (@cmug if memory serves).

I think what you *really* need is a paper from the 1960s. I have a feeling that today's papers just don't ferrotype especially well. If you ask people who used to do it routinely, they usually say that it wasn't particularly difficult, but I've yet to talk to someone who has recent experience to the same effect.

 

[Photopathe]

Thanks for the replies! I am simply going to give up on this. It's not worth it then. Also there are so many ways to mess up a print, better avoid adding one.

 

[AgX]

I think we got a terminology issue here.

 

[Paul Howell]

Although it been a few years, I've Ferrotyped glossy with Foma FB, it does take practice, a very clean plate, not marred in any way. I don't have access to the ferrotype solution, I use distilled water, squeezy the print face down on a cold plate and let it dry at which time the print will pop off. I don't see how a sheet of plastic will work at all. Today I print 80% RC, don't really have a need for a glossy FB print.

 

[Don_ih]

tried one if those too. Stuck together like irreversibly

I can't recall where, but I read that if your print sticks to the ferrotype plate, the print has not been washed properly. But since I can't recall where I read it, that may be false.

I have used a print dryer (without the heat turned on) to ferrotype with a little bit of success. I used furniture wax to buff the surface, first.

Using a ferrotype plate is supposed to be easy. You just squeegee the prints onto it and let them dry. I have a lot of small, high-gloss prints from the 30s and 40s - finding a blemish on them is close to impossible. People used to want their prints glossy to put in photo albums.

Finding an old ferrotype plate that isn't corroded or beaten up would be a challenge.

 

[AgX]

Although it been a few years, I've Ferrotyped glossy with Foma FB, it does take practice, a very clean plate, not marred in any way. I don't have access to the ferrotype solution, I use distilled water, squeezy the print face down on a cold plate and let it dry at which time the print will pop off. I don't see how a sheet of plastic will work at all. Today I print 80% RC, don't really have a need for a glossy FB print.

I do not see why for cold ferroyping a acrylic sheet should not work. Though one may argue on different van-der Waal forces beetween Acrylic and Chromium

The artefact at the OP to me seems patches of supercoat being ruptured off the paper.

 

[Don_ih]

I do not see why for cold ferroyping a acrylic sheet should not work

Maybe the surface of the acrylic is more porous than a ferrotype plate (which is highly polished). Does glass work?

 

[Paul Howell]

I don't recall every reading that glass or plastic works, not sure why, maybe I took it for granted.

 

[AgX]

Maybe the surface of the acrylic is more porous than a ferrotype plate (which is highly polished). Does glass work?

To my understanding it would not be a matter of porosity but that of small forces. One really has to do parallel testing...

 

[btaylor]

I don't recall every reading that glass or plastic works, not sure why, maybe I took it for granted.

I would think that if glass worked that’s what people would have used back in the day, rather than spending money on a ferrotype plate. I’ve never tried it, and with not a single success story in years of reading threads like this I am not about to give it a whirl. Air dried FB glossy looks great to me.

 

[Paul Howell]

My ferrotype is an electric print drier, I rarely used it that way. The canvas is not great for archival, needed to washed after each use. Without plugging it in I put the pints on the plate and let it air dry until it popped off. In the "old days" before RC became popular commercial photogpghers used powered print driers, large ferrotype drums that could dry face up to the drum for glossy and face down for matt or simi matt with glossy paper. In the 70s I had a large drier, took up to 16X20, sold it when I hired on by UPI. Today I dry FB on large fiberglass screens, I can stack up to 8 high up to 16X20.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

The pattern you are getting is most likely from imperfect contact with the plexi, or water has been trapped between the plexi and the print.

I originally came up with the plexi idea after trying ferrotyping plates and a few other ideas people had back over a decade ago. Everything else was just frustrating. The plexi idea struck me out of the blue because of the static that plexi has. I gave it a try and it worked. I threw it out onto the interwebs at the time and since have seen people reference it but no one does it right. One person even made it a video and mucked it up.

First off the plexi needs to be really clean and free from scratches. Use plastic polish to clean it. Then you need to put a very light coat of wax on the plexi. I use Butcher's wax but someone told me recently that it isn't available anymore*. You need a pure wax, not a silicone wax made for cars. A pure carnauba or beeswax should work. I thin the Butcher's wax with turpentine to get it to be as thin as I can get it. Soak the print in warm or hot water (I use hot tap water) then put it down wet on the plexi. Use a brayer to press the print onto the plexi. Don't be afraid t really press on it. I use a hard plastic brayer as well, not a soft one. If you use clear plexi then you can verify by looking through it that the print has perfect contact. Let the print dry. I put a towel over it so it dries more slowly and evenly. When it is done it will look like it is stuck to the plexi, but that is the static from the plexi. You'll never get the oyster shell patters from plexi like you will from chromed plates. In my experience you won't get any of the problems outside of imperfect contact like your print shows. You'll need something to catch an edge to get the print off the plexi. I use a guitar pick. Peel the print off and if you did it right it will be perfect.

*I just looked up Butcher's wax and apparently it is still made but they dropped the Butcher's in the name. Now it is called Boston Polish.

Maybe a mod can make this post a ferrotype sticky so it isn't lost into the ether of the internet.

 

[koraks]

Thanks for the writeup. I might try this sometime. I tried plexiglass as well in the past and I also experimented with wax coatings, but I don't think I ever did exactly what you described. I certainly never soaked the prints in warm water, which will undoubtedly help swell the gelatin. I do think I tried a carbonate soak to achieve the same effect, but my memory is hazy. Thanks again, sounds nice.

Btw, evidently glass also works in principle. My dad used to ferrotype his snaps on the bathroom mirror back in the 1960s. I asked him for details a few years ago but it was too long ago for him to remember the specifics. All he said was that he didn't recall it being a particularly difficult thing to do and the prints would pop off the glass by themselves, so he would stick them to the mirror at night and collect the ferrotyped prints from the wash basin before brushing his teeth in the morning.

 

[Don_ih]

As for glass, I tried yesterday with a freshly print on extremely old Kodabromide (fully washed). I squeegeed the print onto the glass - which was very clean. The print stuck on there like it was glued. If nothing else, it's a good way to mount the paper....

 

[Photopathe]

The pattern you are getting is most likely from imperfect contact with the plexi, or water has been trapped between the plexi and the print.

I originally came up with the plexi idea after trying ferrotyping plates and a few other ideas people had back over a decade ago. Everything else was just frustrating. The plexi idea struck me out of the blue because of the static that plexi has. I gave it a try and it worked. I threw it out onto the interwebs at the time and since have seen people reference it but no one does it right. One person even made it a video and mucked it up.

First off the plexi needs to be really clean and free from scratches. Use plastic polish to clean it. Then you need to put a very light coat of wax on the plexi. I use Butcher's wax but someone told me recently that it isn't available anymore*. You need a pure wax, not a silicone wax made for cars. A pure carnauba or beeswax should work. I thin the Butcher's wax with turpentine to get it to be as thin as I can get it. Soak the print in warm or hot water (I use hot tap water) then put it down wet on the plexi. Use a brayer to press the print onto the plexi. Don't be afraid t really press on it. I use a hard plastic brayer as well, not a soft one. If you use clear plexi then you can verify by looking through it that the print has perfect contact. Let the print dry. I put a towel over it so it dries more slowly and evenly. When it is done it will look like it is stuck to the plexi, but that is the static from the plexi. You'll never get the oyster shell patters from plexi like you will from chromed plates. In my experience you won't get any of the problems outside of imperfect contact like your print shows. You'll need something to catch an edge to get the print off the plexi. I use a guitar pick. Peel the print off and if you did it right it will be perfect.

*I just looked up Butcher's wax and apparently it is still made but they dropped the Butcher's in the name. Now it is called Boston Polish.

Maybe a mod can make this post a ferrotype sticky so it isn't lost into the ether of the internet.

I tried it this way except the plexiglass was not transparent like glass and not new and not totally perfect I guess. Also I used Gamlin cold wax medium (beeswax with gamsol). Do you think it is suitable? I am willing to give it a last try following your instructions. I will buy a brand new clear plexiglass sheet. Also if you think that wax is not suitable I'll get some Boston wax.

 

[Paul Howell]

For the price of a sheet of plexiglass you can find old electric print dryer, with a ferrotype plate. Polish the plate squeezy the print on to plate and let it day and pop off. If you wash the canvas cover you can try plugging it in as well.

 

[pentaxuser]

Here's a fairly comprehensive video from The Naked Photographer AKA Greg Davis. Worth a look IMO


pentaxuser

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I tried it this way except the plexiglass was not transparent like glass and not new and not totally perfect I guess. Also I used Gamlin cold wax medium (beeswax with gamsol). Do you think it is suitable? I am willing to give it a last try following your instructions. I will buy a brand new clear plexiglass sheet. Also if you think that wax is not suitable I'll get some Boston wax.

I can't tell you if it is suitable or not since I haven't used it. I don't talk about things or give advice unless I have enough experience with something that I am confident I know what I am talking about. Wish other people did that. This thread is kinda full of b.s.....

I don't know what they put in the Gamlin. The basic function of waxing the plexi is just so the print won't stick to it. You may or may not need to do that. Remember that you need a miniscule amount. It isn't like waxing your car. I don't think getting the Boston Polish is necessary. Like I've said before, it was just what I had around so I tried it.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Here's a fairly comprehensive video from The Naked Photographer AKA Greg Davis. Worth a look IMO


pentaxuser

Gee, I wonder where he got the idea to use plexi and Boston Polish... Lol.

 

[Don_ih]

This thread is kinda full of b.s.....

Take away the b.s., you take away the conversation. No one's life depends on what's written here.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Take away the b.s., you take away the conversation. No one's life depends on what's written here.

Very true, but the b.s. leads people down rabbit holes that waste their time and discourage them from continuing. I mean you have gasbag above unequivocally telling the OP that plexi doesn't work. He has no idea whether it will or not because he has never tried it. If you were the OP and read that without knowing you might just give up. That is what I am talking about. I guess that is just the internet though. I've seen it more and more here in the last few years though. Gotta wonder what "knowledge" is going to look like in another decade.

 

[mshchem]

For the price of a sheet of plexiglass you can find old electric print dryer, with a ferrotype plate. Polish the plate squeezy the print on to plate and let it day and pop off. If you wash the canvas cover you can try plugging it in as well. View attachment 312768

Good advice! The letting it dry without heat is a good point.

In the good old days, most ferrotyped prints were single weight papers. Typically contact prints of snapshots, small enlargements of 35mm, and of course the "8×10 Glossy" that was used for promotion.

Typical routine included cleaning and polishing the ferrotype drum, and of course a print drying solution like Pakosol, or Kodak Print Flattening solution.

Very important point Kodak made. If you are using a heated drum dryer, hardener in the fixer, or even a separate bath helps with sticking, either to the belt, if emulsion is facing the belt, or the drum if ferrotyping.

This is tribal knowledge that has been lost as that generation(s) are lost.