Flare is reducing detail.
You will not see more real details in the shadows.
If you mean, in the sense that it reduces contrast, then yes, I agree, although I'd formulate it differently.
As I argued in my post, there's a small part in the toe of the curve, just where it takes off, where you may gain a small bit of differentiation as a result to the 'quasi-preflash' exposure that veiling glare adds.
I agree with you that it's not much, and also that the costs it comes at are probably not worth this slight benefit.
O.k., the correct technical term for that is light transmission, and not flare.
That is also measured by the T-stop value (in addition to f-stop), which gives you the real "light-power" of a lens.
Uncoated or single-coated lenses have lower / worse light transmission than multi-coated lenses, and therefore also a worse T-stop.
No, there will not be any additional light!! See above, the light transmission / T-stop value of an uncoated or single coated lens is lower than of a multicoated lens.
Less light is going through the lens.
No, no, no.
That is not happening. There is no magic "stealing light from the bright areas and transferring them to shadows" made internally by an uncoated or single coated lens.
Because the worse light transmission affects the whole picture.
And because if that would really be the case, then logically two other things would happen:
1. The characteristic curve of the film would change with higher density in the shadows and lower density in the highlight zones.
2. Your film speed would be increased.
But as we all know, that two things do not happen: Neither is the curve shape changed with a worse-coated lens, nor do you get higher real speed with such a lens (just the opposite, because of the worse T-stop / worse light transmission you loose real speed).
Therefore you cannot solve the inherent problems of P30 by using worse lenses.
Of course, if you don't trust physical laws just buy several old lenses, lots of P30 and chemistry and try it.
But be assured, it will be a huge waste of time and money (and I just want to protect you from that mistake).
I think you may be referring to something else. AFAIK @Harry Callahan is talking about flare, in the sense of 'veiling glare', which does indeed reduce overall contrast by illuminating shadows that would otherwise remain darker. See e.g. this explanation by Imatest: https://www.imatest.com/docs/veilingglare/
What veiling glare will do is create density (on a negative image forming medium) in shadows. As such, it will also interact with the toe behavior of the medium as there's a point where this additional shadow exposure sensitizes the medium in the same way a preflash does, so it will allow the capture of some shadow detail that would not be recorded when using an optical stack with less glare. Note that this only happens in a select part of the toe region of the film.
What veiling glare will not do is create detail/contrast in those shadows, or significantly affect straight-line or shoulder behavior of the medium, since there is no significant decrease in exposure happening in those parts of the curve.
All combined, an optical system with a large amount of veiling glare will reduce overall contrast by making shadows lighter, possibly capturing marginal detail in those areas (albeit still with low contrast/poor separation). The severity of the effect changes with the amount of glare. As such, the effect is relatively easy to reconstruct by a simple A/B test with a glare-prone lens with and without hood and a light source just outside the image frame, and then comparing the captures.
Whether it is an effective strategy to use a lens that is particularly prone to glare as a means to compensate for undesired film curve behavior (or vice versa) is up to the individual photographer or cinematographer to decide. Personally, I think it's a tricky strategy since it is very prone to per-shot conditions, specific glare behavior of the lens and the specific characteristics of the film that need to be addressed. That makes it a rather difficult to predict set of interactions. I'm sure high-end cinematographers could expound lengthily on how to make thos controllable, as it's a phenomenon that can indeed be exploited deliberately for creative purposes.
For the still photographer and especially amateurs, I can imagine that it can simply be a fun and somewhat effective 'workaround' to combine a flare-prone lens with a film that has a pronounced S-curve behavior and get pleasing (albeit somewhat unpredictable) results. Personally, I'd rather choose to use a properly coated lens with decent optical characteristics and avoid the toe of the curve in those cases where it's needed by simply adding some exposure, perhaps combined with some reduced development.
You should not mix "single-coated" with "uncoated" lenses in the same basket. There are single-coated lenses that are very contrasty.
Single-coating has the same effectivity than multi-coating at a specific wavelength (i.e. green color). Some older lenses (i.e. Nikkors) had all their single-coatings optimized for maximum transmission of a specific wavelength. They are very contrasty at the expense of a suboptimal color balance. Additionally, what is often called a "single-coated" lens colloqially, might have dual-layer coatings, which are highly effective. Yet additionally, a so-called "multicoated" lens might have many single-coated surfaces.
Lenses with few group (i.e. Tessar, 6/4 gauss types) don't really need multicoating to give excellent contrast. One can compare the results, for example, of a single-coated Nikkor-H 50/2 with the multicoated Nikkor-H-C 50/2 of identical optical design. The contrast is the same, the multicoated lens has a litle bit more resistance to ghosting (which is not the same as "flare")
Sorry, this makes no sense.
Correct.
Correct
Sorry, your figures are not correct (and are far higher than actual values). First of all, there's not only one "figure" but a curve. Because transmission will change with wavelength. Second, it will depend on the refraction index of the glass and of the coating(s) themselves.
The light transmission of the complete lens system will depend on how the lens designer has designed to apply the coatings (either single- or multi-coatings): to get maximum transmission OR to get perfect color balance. Often it's a compromise, to get good (pro-quality) color reproduction and sufficiently high transmission.
Additionally, if we're speaking about old "single-coated" lenses, since the late 1950s there are different single-coating techniques, with dramatically different effectivity at light transmissions.
Correct if we consider the light transmission at all wavelengths (i.e. measuring red, green, blue).
To summarize my previous post, let's see this graphic:
Light transmission of the 1960 Nikkor-S 58/1.4 (single-coated)
versus the circa-2010 Nikkor AF-S 50/1.4G (nikon modern super integrated coating)
More than 50 years of diffference... Yet the light transmission is the same at the 500nm wavelength (see my previous post), and even better in the older lens from 800nm onwards.
The modern lens seems to have been optimized for max performance at the green spectrum (again, see my previous post), and to try to supress infrared radiation.
BTW 91-93% of light transmission for a normal lens is pretty similar to what many multicoated lenses in the 1970s would achieve. See 2nd picture for an example.
View attachment 324878
Source:lenstip.com
Late 1970s test, Pop photo. See "transmittance". Multcoated lens.
View attachment 324879
Wasn't it Ansel Adams in one of his books who stated that an old, uncoated lens could impart flare on the negative, adding slightly more density to the shadows... opening them up, similar to pre-exposure? My old Wollensak Verito does that, same with my Reinhold Meniscus.
The fewer coated lens has to take light from somewhere to produce flare at all and it will take this light from the bright parts of the subject. Do you know how flare is produced inside a lens?
1. There will be higher densitiy in the shadows and lower densitiy in the highlights, but the curve of the film will not be changed at all.
The contrast the film will see during exposure will change - and that`s what i`ve been saying several times, too. You kept insisting on the curve not to change - and i said it doesn't have to change and it won`t. Also several times.
2.No, speed will not increase as there only is light being moved from the highlights to the shadows. You`re still mistaking flare (fog) for increased light transmission.
As I argued in my post, there's a small part in the toe of the curve, just where it takes off, where you may gain a small bit of differentiation as a result to the 'quasi-preflash' exposure that veiling glare adds.
I agree with you that it's not much, and also that the costs it comes at are probably not worth this slight benefit.
I am talking about an even fog covering the entire neg.
Yes. It`s "The Negative", Basic Photo 2, released by Morgan&Morgan, inc. Hastings-on-Hudson, N.Y. . Chapter "Lens flare and image contrast" p.53 and following.
It's always entertaining to see a poster insist they know better than Adams.
Therefore a fewer coated lens should be able to counteract P30.
It's always entertaining to see a poster insist they know better than Adams.
Well, Sal, if Adams would still live and would have tested P30, he would have been extremely disappointed and definitely would not have used it, because for his working workflow with the Zone System this film belongs to the worst films...
Henning, my comment related not to the film but rather a series of posts denying the efficacy of inefficient (or no) lens coatings as a workaround for films that need help in the shadows. As described by Adams, among others.
This statement clearly shows that you have not understood at all the basics and what a HD curve / characteristic curve is.
And it clearly shows that you have never used a densitometer and evaluated a curve.
Because
- if you have higher density in the shadows and lower density in the highlights, the curve shape is of course changed!!
- you do not have lower density in the highlights caused by flare, flare - when it appears - is spreading over the whole frame and also adding density in the highlights: that is easily measured with the densitometer.
And this statement again clearly shows that you have not understood at all what the HD curve is representing.
You are completely contradicting yourself!
You claim that the contrast will change, but not the curve. And that is totally impossible, because the curve represents / shows the contrast of a film-developer combination with a certain development time and agitation scheme.
And again your complete misunderstanding of physics and what a curve is: If "there only is light being moved from highlights to the shadows" as you claim, then of course you have a speed increase!
Because film speed is defined by shadow detail / shadow density!
But flare when occuring is spreading across the whole frame, and not only across shadows (just look at the more than 1,000 examples on lenstip.com and Chris Frost on yt). And you can measure it in highlights with a densitometer, too.
Your whole idea fails right in the beginning because you don't know what is really happening on the negative, because you are not evaluating your film-developer results and HD curves with a densitometer.
And again you are contradicting yourself:
In your post above you have several times claimed that "there only is light being moved from highlights to the shadows".
And now you are saying the opposite, that "an even fog is covering the entire neg".
What Adams is describing is a more general and more theoretical aspect.
But that will not help you with P30:
- in normal, more diffuse lighting conditions the effect of additional flare or fog caused by the uncoated lens is much too low to have an effect on P30 (because P30 HD curve is too steep and shadow detail too low)
- in backligthing conditions there will be huge amounts of flare which destroy the detail rendition (see the links I've given above).
Uncoated or single coated lenses are just the wrong tool to solve P30 inherent problems. You will not gain anything.
The best method is to give that film 2-3 stops more exposure (compared to the official EI of 80) and try to find a developer, correct dilution and correct developing time which then give you a better and much less problematic HD curve.
And for that evaluations the best tool is using a very good densitometer and learn the basics of sensitometry (which is generally the best tool to get best results with BW film, no matter which film and developer you are using).
No, not really, and not in a significant or sufficient way.
It is more like adding another "big problem" to an existent "huge problem".
Been there, done that. Reporting from very detailed tests and experience.
Hello Harry,
as someone who is running an independent photography test lab for many many years, and who has tested a countless number of different films, lenses and developers over the years - including P30 of course - I can ensure you that a fewer coated lens cannot fully solve the main problem of P30, which is its very problematic characteristic curve shape and the very limited flexibility of adjusting that curve to really satisfying levels.
In recent years no other film has shown so many difficulties in my test lab to get reasonable effective light sensitivity and usable tonality at the same time compared to other established films. All these tests did cost me lots of time, and in the end the results have always been significantly worse compared to other films (and no matter what lens being used).
Best regards,
Henning
Folks,
Perhaps this P30 and uncoated lens conversation could be moved to a thread of its own?
But if you consider this off-topic i will stop it.
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