Ferrania P30 available

Rudeofus · Feb 10, 2020

Ferrania did not run into amateur obstacles or that level of surprises. They ran into the big stuff - asbestos in the walls, lack of power and hot water, endless delays and red tape until they got hooked up, until their last batch of usable chemistry went bad. They fought like tigers and failed, some Monday morning quarterbacks had their "told you so" moment, and some folks with reading difficulties had their "but I want my reward" moment.

To some extent I understand the smugness of the armchair experts, and the disappointment of the did-not-readers, yet I can't help but salute the courage, stamina and determination of the Ferrania folks who still hang in there, and have already delivered a product, that almost none of us here will be able to produce in the next ten years.

Deleted member 88956 · Feb 10, 2020

Rudeofus said:
Ferrania did not run into amateur obstacles or that level of surprises. They ran into the big stuff - asbestos in the walls, lack of power and hot water, endless delays and red tape until they got hooked up, until their last batch of usable chemistry went bad. They fought like tigers and failed, some Monday morning quarterbacks had their "told you so" moment, and some folks with reading difficulties had their "but I want my reward" moment.

To some extent I understand the smugness of the armchair experts, and the disappointment of the did-not-readers, yet I can't help but salute the courage, stamina and determination of the Ferrania folks who still hang in there, and have already delivered a product, that almost none of us here will be able to produce in the next ten years.

I really think you are misreading some of the comments. When I went into New55, I pledged, read it again, withdrew, 'cause it was mind boggling to me committing any sum for what was written in that one.

This is sort of proof how this stuff works (or not). Say what New55 said and you pledge with zero guarantees, as per that statement. Ferrania went the opposite, put in a line that was to be a sure point of contention if things did not work out.

You say they did not run into "amateur obstacles? Then you say "asbestos, power, water hook up ..." sounds amateur (research) to me. Not sure why dragging this ever so deeper into non existing frontiers. I'm happy Ferrania has a product, likely because they got the money, even if for a seemingly different product. Where this leads only time will tell.

Agulliver · Feb 10, 2020

@Rudeofus YES...so much this. Film Ferrania were clear what the Kickstarter money was for, how they proposed to make the rewards....and were very transparent when things started to go wrong.

They had one last lot of "goop" with which they could coat one last run of E6 film. They had a small window in which to do so.....before the asbestos and then the Italian government pulled the rug from under their feet. They had the power and gas cut from the building, a road built through the campus, long delays getting the asbestos removed and the building certified by the government as safe....in that time the "goop" (as some call it) went bad and the original rewards could not be made. All through this Film Ferrania were totally transparent and explained exactly what was going on.

I'm with you....the people who can't or who refuse to read and who want to have a moan had their moment. Thankfully Film Farrania didn't give up.

And how anyone can say that these problems were "amateur obstacles" is completely beyond my comprehension. Frankly I give up trying to understand it and just assume it is wilful ignorance.

Deleted member 88956 · Feb 10, 2020

Agulliver said:
@Rudeofus YES...so much this. Film Ferrania were clear what the Kickstarter money was for, how they proposed to make the rewards....and were very transparent when things started to go wrong.

They had one last lot of "goop" with which they could coat one last run of E6 film. They had a small window in which to do so.....before the asbestos and then the Italian government pulled the rug from under their feet. They had the power and gas cut from the building, a road built through the campus, long delays getting the asbestos removed and the building certified by the government as safe....in that time the "goop" (as some call it) went bad and the original rewards could not be made. All through this Film Ferrania were totally transparent and explained exactly what was going on.

I'm with you....the people who can't or who refuse to read and who want to have a moan had their moment. Thankfully Film Farrania didn't give up.

And how anyone can say that these problems were "amateur obstacles" is completely beyond my comprehension. Frankly I give up trying to understand it and just assume it is with ignorance.

I (the ignorant) think that for anyone familiar with Italy would be astonished had anyone not expected red tape and silly unsupportive oversight from the government, that's how things are done in Italy. So I call these things serious lack of due diligence. When one considers the size of this operation, which should have been expected before it even started, then it is more like charging tank batalion with bows and arrows. So all these later problems you are describing are unfortunately nothing to be proud of from planning perspective. Asbestos is indeed no joke for clean up, but this has been the case for how long, 40 years? This alone was beyond predictable. Call them what you like, earth ending catastrophe for all I care, but it is still what it is. If Ferrania was all that transparent about all this, then great, at least they did no hide in the closet while making up all kinds of stories and excuses.

All the same, all those who pledged and got nothing have a right to complain and this seems to be a taboo for some enthusiasts of this project. Support it and be happy, let others sour up a little over what was said and then done.

But I will repeat this again, good for Ferrania they got up and running with B&W film. I wish them success.

Rudeofus · Feb 11, 2020

Witold said:
I (the ignorant) think that for anyone familiar with Italy would be astonished had anyone not expected red tape and silly unsupportive oversight from the government, that's how things are done in Italy. So I call these things serious lack of due diligence.

One could easily read your comment as "they should have known that Italy is run by dorks", and I would consider this a bit unfair. Yes, investment money is not exactly pouring into Italy in massive amounts for a reason, but that doesn't mean Italians are a hopeless pack of disorganized bozos. The Ferrania team could have spent months doing very very due diligence, they may have discovered an obstacle or two, and after all that due diligence their gelatin bucket would have gone bad. They would not have had the money to save the three machines they were after, but some folks would have saved a few dozen Euros.

Witold said:
When one considers the size of this operation, which should have been expected before it even started, then it is more like charging tank batalion with bows and arrows. So all these later problems you are describing are unfortunately nothing to be proud of from planning perspective. Asbestos is indeed no joke for clean up, but this has been the case for how long, 40 years? This alone was beyond predictable. Call them what you like, earth ending catastrophe for all I care, but it is still what it is. If Ferrania was all that transparent about all this, then great, at least they did no hide in the closet while making up all kinds of stories and excuses.

Evidently Ferrania hangs in quite well with their bows and arrows, maybe a lot slower than with current MBTs, but they are still alive and active. It also appears to me, that a lot more money has flowed into this operation than what was invested in this kickstarter campaign. Someone does invest, and someone does believe in them, someone with money.

Witold said:
All the same, all those who pledged and got nothing have a right to complain and this seems to be a taboo for some enthusiasts of this project. Support it and be happy, let others sour up a little over what was said and then done.

All these complaints are getting a bit old by now. That kickstarter campaign was started several years ago (September 2014, that's over 5 years ago! ). It has been clear for many years (at least 4 years now), that the rewards would not be delivered in the next few years, and credible reasons were given.

This very thread is about Ferrania's latest shipment of P30 black&white film (see the thread title), and again it has degenerated into a "rah rah rah they didn't ship my rewards" whine festival. What's next? Some more whining, because Zinedine Zidane iowacaucused the 2006 Soccer World Cup finals for France?

Burninfilm · Feb 11, 2020

Ferrania Whine Fest? Sure, why not? Sounds like fun.

Ferrania. LOL. The amazing success story of a company that promised color slide film in four different formats (including Super 8!) and then went above and beyond to bestow upon us an 80 speed (debatable) B&W print film in just one format at one of the highest prices in the industry.

It is my belief that there is likely NO way they would have ever delivered on their original goals and timetable even if everything went right. Think about it... it took them TWO years AFTER they produced the "Alpha" batch of P30 in 35mm to begin producing film again. And they are still only capable of producing 35mm. And they still aren't doing it all in house (they stated earlier that they would only begin production again when they could do it all in house). They by no means had "everything" they'd need to produce that batch of color slide film, because they would need a fully functioning factory able to convert the different film bases into different film formats. They still do not have this, and this can't be blamed on chemicals expiring. Their current state seems to point towards them not having everything they needed, and it seems that it may have taken them 5 years to figure that out.

Personally, I don't really believe much of what they post up or talk about. Heck, even in their recent video updates they are STILL finding new reasons (excuses?) for why they failed to deliver on their Kickstarter promises. And if I'm going to invest $9-something dollars on a roll of B&W 35mm film, I'd rather buy 2 rolls of someone else's B&W film or maybe a roll of Kodak TMAX 3200. I also don't really trust their ability to make the film at a consistent level of quality. Geez... I can already imagine the list of reasons for why some future batch of film might be defective... So... Ferrania doesn't really interest me at this point in time, outside of how they fulfill their Kickstarter obligations.

Having said all of that, I do respect their tenacity and persistence. Hopefully they can produce some additional products to diversify their product catalog, and hopefully they can start building up a track record of producing high-quality products delivered in a timely manner. They are still alive, so they still have a chance to do just that. And maybe... just maybe... they'll whip up some color slide film someday.

And yes... it's possible to be critical of a company and still wish them the best and be optimistic for their future. Maybe the failed Kickstarter proves to be a useful lesson to learn from.

Deleted member 88956 · Feb 11, 2020

Burninfilm said:
Ferrania Whine Fest? Sure, why not? Sounds like fun.

Ferrania. LOL. The amazing success story of a company that promised color slide film in four different formats (including Super 8!) and then went above and beyond to bestow upon us an 80 speed (debatable) B&W print film in just one format at one of the highest prices in the industry.

It is my belief that there is likely NO way they would have ever delivered on their original goals and timetable even if everything went right. Think about it... it took them TWO years AFTER they produced the "Alpha" batch of P30 in 35mm to begin producing film again. And they are still only capable of producing 35mm. And they still aren't doing it all in house (they stated earlier that they would only begin production again when they could do it all in house). They by no means had "everything" they'd need to produce that batch of color slide film, because they would need a fully functioning factory able to convert the different film bases into different film formats. They still do not have this, and this can't be blamed on chemicals expiring. Their current state seems to point towards them not having everything they needed, and it seems that it may have taken them 5 years to figure that out.

Personally, I don't really believe much of what they post up or talk about. Heck, even in their recent video updates they are STILL finding new reasons (excuses?) for why they failed to deliver on their Kickstarter promises. And if I'm going to invest $9-something dollars on a roll of B&W 35mm film, I'd rather buy 2 rolls of someone else's B&W film or maybe a roll of Kodak TMAX 3200. I also don't really trust their ability to make the film at a consistent level of quality. Geez... I can already imagine the list of reasons for why some future batch of film might be defective... So... Ferrania doesn't really interest me at this point in time, outside of how they fulfill their Kickstarter obligations.

Having said all of that, I do respect their tenacity and persistence. Hopefully they can produce some additional products to diversify their product catalog, and hopefully they can start building up a track record of producing high-quality products delivered in a timely manner. They are still alive, so they still have a chance to do just that. And maybe... just maybe... they'll whip up some color slide film someday.

And yes... it's possible to be critical of a company and still wish them the best and be optimistic for their future. Maybe the failed Kickstarter proves to be a useful lesson to learn from.

Ditto on pretty much everything you said. I bought 2 rolls of FP30 without even expecting it to show up here in Poland. But if they are to find demand long term even just for this 35mm FP30 version, the price needs to get cut in half. I'll probably wait with using these 2 rolls as I'm hearing problems with processing, so maybe it will get sorted out to increase probability of getting decent images on it.

And the long term demand is key to continual production and I think they should really focus on this FP30, make it predictable, catch a wave of demand and only after it is stable and cash flow established, jump into other emulsions. This is the reason why I suggested 127 format as people are willing to pay premium for it, next to nothing exists outside of stupendously priced hand rolled HP5+ or the meh quality Rera Pan 400 and this is what they need.

Until we see it or they fold ... hope is there.

perkeleellinen · Feb 11, 2020

I wonder if we will soon have more lamentations over Ferrania than we had over Kodachrome.

It was a different world back then, pre-Ektachrome, when the narrative on here was that Fuji would soon cut all film and that would leave projection high and dry. Back then there was no colour reversal movie film - my Super8 camera was already two years into its long hibernation. In that context it was right to hope; the future looked real bleak.

Rudeofus · Feb 11, 2020

Nobody, absolutely nobody, has attempted to stop the two of you (@Burninfilm and @Witold) from looking elsewhere for black&white film. And everyone else who rags on P30. TMAX 100 will be cheaper, faster, finer grained and with better quality control than anything coming out of Ferrania's factory in the foreseeable future. P30 is a film for enterprising photographers, who are willing to put up with high prices, unreliable supply chain and less than perfect quality control in order to get this specific look. And it sold out!

Deleted member 88956 · Feb 11, 2020

Rudeofus said:
Nobody, absolutely nobody, has attempted to stop the two of you (@Burninfilm and @Witold) from looking elsewhere for black&white film. And everyone else who rags on P30. TMAX 100 will be cheaper, faster, finer grained and with better quality control than anything coming out of Ferrania's factory in the foreseeable future. P30 is a film for enterprising photographers, who are willing to put up with high prices, unreliable supply chain and less than perfect quality control in order to get this specific look. And it sold out!

Are you sure you've read the whole from me about Ferrania? Looks you're being selective. I was not a backer, would not have become one anyways. Yet opinion do have. Not a masochist either, so got my 2 rolls of FP30 and unlikely more until supply is indeed steady so I can have it when I want it without hunting it down. If you are having fun waking up every day not knowing if Ferrania Ferry left the factory with yet another 10 rolls of its film, that's OK.

Agulliver · Feb 11, 2020

By all the gods, do you want me to provide some cheese with that whine?

foc · Feb 11, 2020

I have followed this thread and a few others about Ferrania and P30 and I try and see all sides. I have read back over these threads and reviewed my own postings and I have come to my own conclusion.

There are those that blindly believe in Ferrania and hang on their every word.
There are those that do not believe in Ferrania and see lies in everything they say.
And there are some rational people that can argue their point in a mannerly way and are respectful of other's opinions.

IMO number 3 is in the minority.

Ballinderry-Michael · Feb 11, 2020

foc said:
I have followed this thread and a few others about Ferrania and P30 and I try and see all sides. I have read back over these threads and reviewed my own postings and I have come to my own conclusion.

There are those that blindly believe in Ferrania and hang on their every word.

There are those that do not believe in Ferrania and see lies in everything they say.

And there are some rational people that can argue their point in a mannerly way and are respectful of other's opinions.

IMO number 3 is in the minority.

Maith an duine túsa!

foc · Feb 11, 2020

Ballinderry-Michael said:
Maith an duine túsa

Go raibh maith agat

(use Google translate if you really want to know)

mshchem · Feb 11, 2020

Oy Vey!

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 11, 2020

foc said:
Go raibh maith agat

(use Google translate if you really want to know)

MattKing · Feb 11, 2020

Agulliver said:
By all the gods, do you want me to provide some cheese with that whine?

That would be nice - clearly we already have the crackers.

Scott Micciche · Feb 12, 2020

Here are some results from P30 (new,non-alpha), 80 ASA - Nikon F2, various lenses. Developed in Photographer's Formulary FA-1027 1:14 for 14 minutes. 10s agitation / minute. Scanned on a Pakon F135 to 16 bit raw, inverted in colorperfect's colorneg mode, Grade 2 selection. Minor dust removal and straightening. https://filmdev.org/recipe/show/12420

Samples:

warden · Feb 12, 2020

Scott Micciche said:
Here are some results from P30 (new,non-alpha), 80 ASA

Very nice Scott. I'm digging the blacks.

Dave Bias was on The Analog Talk Podcast today talking about P30, the Kickstarter, upcoming 120 and 4x5 sizes, color film, etc. Very interesting for those interested in hearing from Ferrania.

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 12, 2020

jawarden said:
Very nice Scott. I'm digging the blacks.

Dave Bias was on The Analog Talk Podcast today talking about P30, the Kickstarter, upcoming 120 and 4x5 sizes, color film, etc. Very interesting for those interested in hearing from Ferrania.

Do you have a link? Thanks.

warden · Feb 12, 2020

Andrew O'Neill said:
Do you have a link? Thanks.

If you google Analog Talk and Dave Bias you'll find it. Analog Talk is available on most podcast players so you can pick your favorite. Here's Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7nQqK5RLtxv8O5SaKSFzL0

Scott Micciche · Feb 12, 2020

jawarden said:
If you google Analog Talk and Dave Bias you'll find it. Analog Talk is available on most podcast players so you can pick your favorite. Here's Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7nQqK5RLtxv8O5SaKSFzL0

Thank you, I have been hunting this.

Deleted member 88956 · Feb 12, 2020

Has anyone processed P30 in Rodinal? I see on digitaltruth 1:50 for 14 minutes?

Scott Micciche · Feb 12, 2020

Witold said:
Has anyone processed P30 in Rodinal? I see on digitaltruth 1:50 for 14 minutes?

I have only personally done this in a semi-stand. Images I've seen in a non-stand are high contrast.

Deleted member 88956 · Feb 12, 2020

Scott Micciche said:
I have only personally done this in a semi-stand. Images I've seen in a non-stand are high contrast.

Can we tell by now whether P30 is better shot at 80 or 50?

Ferrania P30 available

Rudeofus

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Ferrania P30 available

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