Failed first attempt

mitchins · May 26, 2014

Hi all,
So i tried to process my first roll of Shangai GP3 (iso 100, 120 film) in a paterson system 4 with rodinal.
I had a hard time in the darkroom bag and the film ended up coming off the backing as well as rubbing against itself and sticking a number of times.

I've attached a picture of the film that came out, completely clear and almost all the emulsion seems to have disappeared.
Now most google results indicate I may have used the fixer instead of developer, but I did put the developer in first.

Does anyone have any clues, did I ruin the film in my attempts to put it on the reel?
I'm going to try again but just want to get my head around it.

Thanks all,
Mitch

dasBlute · May 26, 2014

completely clean could mean you didn't actually expose the film, messing up in the bag would leave creases and scratches, could not 'remove' the emulsion. as long as you had the film in the developer first for a reasonable amount of time, and the film had been exposed to a reasonable degree, something should appear on the film, keep at it, the first film will warm your heart.... until you think about how you could've added some exposure and not had that telephone pole coming out of her head, and used a yellow filter instead of the red, etc etc etc

so, more exposure probably, it looks as though you've got density on the sides which happens sometimes when handing the closed roll in the light...

yulia_s_rey · May 26, 2014

Hello and welcome to APUG! It seems that there is a very faint neg (between the third and forth wooden bar of the chair) as well as black marks on the edges. It looks as if it was not exposed properly/or at all. What type of camera did you shoot with? Processing times/dev dilution?

pdjr1991 · May 26, 2014

mitchins said:
Hi all,
So i tried to process my first roll of Shangai GP3 (iso 100, 120 film) in a paterson system 4 with rodinal.
I had a hard time in the darkroom bag and the film ended up coming off the backing as well as rubbing against itself and sticking a number of times.

I've attached a picture of the film that came out, completely clear and almost all the emulsion seems to have disappeared.
Now most google results indicate I may have used the fixer instead of developer, but I did put the developer in first.

Does anyone have any clues, did I ruin the film in my attempts to put it on the reel?
I'm going to try again but just want to get my head around it.

Thanks all,
Mitch

You say coming off the backing. As in the paper backing? It should. The roll of film is winded without the paper backing. Also a blank roll could mean you did not expose the film. What camera are you using? Is it possible you forgot the darkslide or forgot to take off the lens cap?

winger · May 26, 2014

It's tough to tell in the photo, but is there writing along either edge of the film? If yes, then it's the camera. If no, then the fixer did go in first. It's possible in the latter case to have used developer that was too old and had lost its activity - then effectively, the fixer did get used first, even if the developer went in first.
What dilutions, times, and temperatures did you use?
As you put the film on the reel, the backing paper SHOULD fall away - you don't want that in the tank.

mitchins · May 26, 2014

winger said:
It's tough to tell in the photo, but is there writing along either edge of the film? If yes, then it's the camera. If no, then the fixer did go in first. It's possible in the latter case to have used developer that was too old and had lost its activity - then effectively, the fixer did get used first, even if the developer went in first.
What dilutions, times, and temperatures did you use?
As you put the film on the reel, the backing paper SHOULD fall away - you don't want that in the tank.

There is a very small amount of writing, like SGHP or something, I believe the company name of Shangai film ( I don't recall).
There isn't as much writing as say Kodak 35mm film which is completely full.

I'm starting to think maybe the Paterson tank didn't distribute the Rodinal mixture properly as not all of the 500ml was accepted by the tank (overflowed with about 100-150ml), I thought I just made too much, but perhaps it didn't get spread and so that's how the fixer managed to "come first", development may not have took place!

yurisrey said:
Hello and welcome to APUG! It seems that there is a very faint neg (between the third and forth wooden bar of the chair) as well as black marks on the edges. It looks as if it was not exposed properly/or at all. What type of camera did you shoot with? Processing times/dev dilution?

I'm using a Mamiya 645 Pro.
It doesn't let me shoot the film with a dark slide in, it seems to do most things for me.
I've gotten a roll of 400H processed by my lab with great results (only roll I've had processed).

I used the dev times off massive dev chart app, with 15 minutes in Rodinol.
I was off to a bit of a slow start because I didn't get a proper sealing on the lid of the paterson tank and so I couldn't tip it upside down all the way, only to about 45 degrees or it would spill.
With the fixer and stop bath I got the lid sealed correctly. There may have been about 100ml of developer solution that didn't make it into the paterson tank because it appears full (I mixed 500ml).
Weird thing is the fixer and stop bath went completely in.

I'm pretty sure I loaded it the right way around because I lined up the <--Start --> markers which were visible to me.

Wallendo · May 26, 2014

Did you do any type of pre-soak?
When using the Paterson tank, one of the advantages over the metal tank I usually use, is the the reagents pour in easily. If you mixed up 500 ml of developer and had 100ml left over, it appears that you had at least 100ml of something else in the tank.

On the other hand, the fact that the printing on the side is present suggests that this really is an exposure problem.

mitchins · May 26, 2014

Wallendo said:
Did you do any type of pre-soak?
When using the Paterson tank, one of the advantages over the metal tank I usually use, is the the reagents pour in easily. If you mixed up 500 ml of developer and had 100ml left over, it appears that you had at least 100ml of something else in the tank.

On the other hand, the fact that the printing on the side is present suggests that this really is an exposure problem.

I did a pre-soak in plain water, and the final bath i used kodak photo-flo.
I would have thought that there would have been at least more visible even if I was off the mark, the bits of dark area on the film don't seem to resemble anything either, and there's certainly no frame edges visible.

yulia_s_rey · May 26, 2014

I agree with Wallendo; Perhaps two of the following (or a combination of both): a) you had 100ml h20 from the pre-soak which further diluted your dev. b) exposure issue.

nworth · May 26, 2014

I can't tell very much from the picture. You say the film was completely clear. If so, it wasn't developed, otherwise you would at least see the pre-exposed edge markings (film type, frame number, etc.). You also say that most of the emulsion came off. How did you determine that, when did it happen, and what did it look like? If it came off, either it was defective or you subjected it to some violent chemical or physical action. What developer, stop bath, and fixer did you use? You say the backing paper came off. When? In the camera? You normally remove the backing paper before development, and I assume you did that.

mitchins · May 27, 2014

nworth said:
I can't tell very much from the picture. You say the film was completely clear. If so, it wasn't developed, otherwise you would at least see the pre-exposed edge markings (film type, frame number, etc.). You also say that most of the emulsion came off. How did you determine that, when did it happen, and what did it look like? If it came off, either it was defective or you subjected it to some violent chemical or physical action. What developer, stop bath, and fixer did you use? You say the backing paper came off. When? In the camera? You normally remove the backing paper before development, and I assume you did that.

I used:
Developer: R09 (1+50 with 15 minutes recipe)
Stop Bath: A pinky vinegar smelling bottle of Kodak Professional "indicator stop bath". I think it was 16ml per litre or something.
Fixer: Ilford Rapid Fixer, 1+4 as indicated by instructions

The backing paper came off in the change bag, I wasn't completely sure if you were suppose to do this but I couldn't get it on the reel any other way.

As for the emulsion, all I can really determine is that the film is completely clear like contact wrap, except for the manufacture's name, and a few splotches of grey area that are very feint; absolutely no frame borders are visible. The film stuck to itself a number of times when I was trying to get it onto the reel and I heard a scratching sound - but I wouldn't expect practically all of the film to be cleared.

Could it be some way I loaded it in the Paterson tank? Or a problem with my agitation method? I rocked it back and forth as indicated on guides.
I will have to try it again to be sure I imagine. From what everyone is saying it was the developing phase that went wrong, or it seems so.

Edit: If I am doing another roll to shoot through for testing purposes, is it useful to have an under or over exposed frame to tell what happened next time?

Truzi · May 27, 2014

You can use that film to practice loading the reel in the light. When you feel you have the hang of it, then practice in a dark-bag. This way it will be easier when you load your next roll.

I really can't comment on what might have gone wrong. I'd think something would have shown. Zooming in on your picture, it does seem like there is some "rebate" there, so I think it developed. I'm leaning toward an exposure problem, but even with the ISO set wrong, I'd think something would have shown. Hard to say without more details.
I do have a back for my Bronica that will let me fire the shutter with the dark slide in, so sometimes things do go wrong.

Nige · May 27, 2014

mitchins said:
Could it be some way I loaded it in the Paterson tank? Or a problem with my agitation method? I rocked it back and forth as indicated on guides.

which paterson tank do you have? not getting the full 500ml indicates something weird has happened, however if you've effectively diluted your developer by 20% (100ml water + 400ml of 1:50 developer) your negs will probably be 'thin' but pretty sure they'd still develop (when I used 'ordiginal' Rodinal, I use to use 18mins @ 1:100).

If your tank is a System 4 with the plastic lid and it's leaking, try 'burping' it. You do this by holding an edge up, pushing the middle down (expels air) and then pushing the edge down. This creates a slight vacuum in the tank and it won't leak (as much!)

If I am doing another roll to shoot through for testing purposes, is it useful to have an under or over exposed frame to tell what happened next time?

yes, but just over-expose. For each scene you shoot, do +1 & +2 exposures. maybe chuck in a +3 as well.

Xmas · May 27, 2014

Try a c41 film and drop it off at a mini lab will confirm the camera is ok.

When you next have a film in dark bag.

First respool the film into a roll of paper and a roll of film they separate easily until you reach the sticky tape then separate the tape from the paper tearing slowly...

fold the sticky tape back over the film.

Load the film into reel.

This last step is way difficult in a dark bag you do need to practice in daylight with eyes closed and the spoilt film until it is like playing Chopin etude on piano with eyes closed with no wrong notes.

You need to be relaxed...

cmacd123 · May 27, 2014

if te letters showed up, you did SOME developing. the roll in teh photo also shows what looks like a small amount of (normal) fog from the edge of the paper.

SO you may not have "fully" developed the roll, or your may not have exposed the roll properly. I have encountered problems with another Chinese film (Lucky SHD) not being attached to the backing paper and folding in the camera, but any of the GP3 seems to be very carefully hand assembled.

I concur with the advice to check the camera with a roll shot then developed by a commercial lab.

winger · May 27, 2014

If the manufacturer's name is on the edge of the film, then the problem lies mainly in the camera. Either you underexposed dramatically or the shutter didn't open correctly. Are you sure that you loaded the film into the camera correctly? With some cameras, it's possible to load it such that the paper is exposed to the light and not the film, which will result in what you got.

declark · May 27, 2014

Any chance you shot it at 400 and not 100 since you mentioned the only other roll you've processed was 400H?

cliveh · May 27, 2014

winger said:
If the manufacturer's name is on the edge of the film, then the problem lies mainly in the camera. Either you underexposed dramatically or the shutter didn't open correctly. Are you sure that you loaded the film into the camera correctly? With some cameras, it's possible to load it such that the paper is exposed to the light and not the film, which will result in what you got.

I would agree with this analysis.

pentaxuser · May 27, 2014

It was more than two stops underexposed, in my view. Had that been the only issue I'd have expected thin images but not no images

Do as Xmas suggests with C41 but without a film can you check that the apertures and shutter speeds are working as they should first?

If they appear to be, then load with C41 and use a lab.

It sounds as if you loaded OK in the end but I'd be inclined to use the nearly blank film as a practice one to ensure that loading goes as smoothly as possible next time.

Finally get to the bottom of this puzzle over the overflowing developer. If the tank takes 500ml and it was empty to start with then it should take the full 500ml. Use water and the blank film to make sure

pentaxuser

Snapshot · May 27, 2014

The film was developed correctly, as noted by the manufacturing edge markings. It's almost definitely a camera problem. Here are the possible issues:

Film not winding correctly in camera
Shutter is sticking or jammed
Film was drastically underexposed

Change the shutter speeds and shoot it without film. Dry fire the Mamiya without the back and see if the curtain moves, using different speeds (1 second and up). If all seems OK, try another roll and if it happens again, I would get your camera looked at by a professional.

mitchins · May 27, 2014

winger said:
If the manufacturer's name is on the edge of the film, then the problem lies mainly in the camera. Either you underexposed dramatically or the shutter didn't open correctly. Are you sure that you loaded the film into the camera correctly? With some cameras, it's possible to load it such that the paper is exposed to the light and not the film, which will result in what you got.

So I'm 99% sure (until I develop a roll this evening) that you hit the nail on the head here!

I believe I may have been loading the film in incorrectly, and that means I could have five rolls of film at home that have been wound through the camera but not exposed! (I think I have consistently inserted it this same way, I didn't think it was incorrect because the start marker appears to be labelled on both sides of the paper!)
The 400H was actually loaded by the previous owner of the camera, and the shutter opens just fine without a film back as did this 400H roll develop properly in the lab.

I have attached images:
I developed a roll of Foma 200 this time to check if the film was different or not, there was a very distinct green tinted liquid washing out after the initial pre-develop bath in water!

IMG_2532.jpg: My second develop attempt (Foma 200)
IMG_2535.jpg: The mamiya guide
IMG_2535.jpg: Shows how I've loaded it to start with.
IMG_2536.jpg: Shows how I loaded it after more carefully examining the Mamiya guide.
Much the same results, very clear label markings.

JW PHOTO · May 27, 2014

I tried shooting through the backing paper one time and found out the reason they have backing paper......'cause no light can get to your film and ruin it! If you would have been using 220 film you might have gotten an weak image, but that darn backing paper works good. We all live and learn I guess. I hope you don't have any "once in a lifetime shots" on those rolls? JW

Xmas · May 28, 2014

If you are sure just re roll them in dark bag and reload into camera use sticky packing paper or similar to hold together.

The cameras normally have load help annotation and the film is always inside roll from out of box.

You may have pressure plate scratches...

Films do have dyes some colour your developer some persist into fix and hypo clear or even wash water.

winger · May 28, 2014

And I'm sure it won't take much guessing to figure out why I suggested that.
Hope that's helped and that we can see some good ones soon! I haven't used (or even loaded or seen) a Mamiya to recognize anything in the photos. Hopefully someone will see the photos and chime in.

Nige · May 28, 2014

see my diagram

red line is the film. ;-)

Failed first attempt

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