Face mask

hoganlia · Feb 12, 2023

oops... I made a mistake and posted this in an open thread in B%W developing... please excuse me forpostinh ere again:

Hi

I have some issues with various chemical based materials.... I started doing water stopping for B&W developing as the Kodak Stop bath was just too much for me.
I am about to start colour developing and I think it may be an idea to use a face mask. The chemicals I have bought are the Tetenal kit.
I would appreciate any ideas re the type of face mask that could be of use
Thanks,

koraks · Feb 12, 2023

I've never found any masks to be necessary for any kind of film processing, but I gather from your post that you're sensitive to certain things. You could look into the kind of masks that people use for things like spray painting / airbrushing; you know, the dual-filter respirator things with replaceable filters.

What is it that you're sensitive to? The Kodak Stop is acetic acid - you can do a color process without acetic acid if you want. If you go from color developer straight to bleach or blix, there's no stop bath at all. It may reduce the usable lifespan of the bleach or blix.

faberryman · Feb 12, 2023

I think a nose clip is more effective than a mask. It is the smell that is noxious.

hoganlia · Feb 12, 2023

koraks said:
I've never found any masks to be necessary for any kind of film processing, but I gather from your post that you're sensitive to certain things. You could look into the kind of masks that people use for things like spray painting / airbrushing; you know, the dual-filter respirator things with replaceable filters.

What is it that you're sensitive to? The Kodak Stop is acetic acid - you can do a color process without acetic acid if you want. If you go from color developer straight to bleach or blix, there's no stop bath at all. It may reduce the usable lifespan of the bleach or blix.

Thanks for the reply...
As far as the B&W goes I am quite happy with water stopping. In terms of colour I am more concerned about the Blix is it is a bleach which I do react to. (I also react to nearly every perfume, much to my wife's annoyance... she loves perfumes) It's not serious but I'd prefer to find away to avoid problems. I never thought I would get into developing and I do love it so much so I want to make sure that I continue to delight in my passion in all it's facets

koraks · Feb 12, 2023

I'd propose to give it a try first and then see if there's anything you react badly to. Bleach, fix and blix generally don't smell very bad at all and don't give off any obnoxious vapors as far as I'm aware of. Nor does C41 developer for that matter.

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 12, 2023

When I'm mixing up pyro developers, working with Acetone, Selenium Toner, and formalin, I always wear a respirator. One that just covers my mouth and nose... Of course, my exhaust fan is switched on! With just stop and fix, I don't wear it, but do have the fan on intermittently.

mshchem · Feb 12, 2023

3M 5301 Half-Face Respirator - Large H-3385 - Uline

Lightweight and comfortable. Organic Vapor – Used for petrochemicals, chemical manufacturing, construction.ULINE offers over 38,500 boxes, plastic poly bags, mailing tubes, warehouse supplies and bubble wrap for your storage, packaging, or shipping supplies.

www.uline.com

mshchem · Feb 12, 2023

3M makes all sorts of very effective cartridge respirator masks. Different cartridges can be tailored to the application. I have an acid respirator for the, just in case, I would need. The carbon filters work great when doing occasional spray painting.

hoganlia · Feb 12, 2023

faberryman said:
I think a nose clip is more effective than a mask. It is the smell that is noxious.

Breathing in though the mouth also is not that pleasant for me, depending on the substance involved. But thanks, I hadn't thought of that option.

koraks said:
I'd propose to give it a try first and then see if there's anything you react badly to. Bleach, fix and blix generally don't smell very bad at all and don't give off any obnoxious vapors as far as I'm aware of. Nor does C41 developer for that matter.

I may do that. My porch is very well ventilated as is. I may be in luck!

hoganlia · Feb 12, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
When I'm mixing up pyro developers, working with Acetone, Selenium Toner, and formalin, I always wear a respirator. One that just covers my mouth and nose... Of course, my exhaust fan is switched on! With just stop and fix, I don't wear it, but do have the fan on intermittently.

My porch is very well ventilated Andrew... cold, at present, but well ventilated. Thanks!

hoganlia · Feb 12, 2023

mshchem said:
3M makes all sorts of very effective cartridge respirator masks. Different cartridges can be tailored to the application. I have an acid respirator for the, just in case, I would need. The carbon filters work great when doing occasional spray painting.

I can get 3M masks where I live, so I will hunt that out. Thanks for the link.

Alan9940 · Feb 12, 2023

Like Andrew, I always wear a respirator when mixing any powder photo chemistry, especially pyrogallol or pyrocatechin. I, also, wear nitrile gloves and an apron. I figure it's best to not breath the dust from any of these chemicals. That said, I don't wear a mask when doing B&W development (don't do color.) I definitely wear the nitrile gloves and apron when working with any pyro-based formula.

hoganlia · Feb 12, 2023

Alan9940 said:
Like Andrew, I always wear a respirator when mixing any powder photo chemistry, especially pyrogallol or pyrocatechin. I, also, wear nitrile gloves and an apron. I figure it's best to not breath the dust from any of these chemicals. That said, I don't wear a mask when doing B&W development (don't do color.) I definitely wear the nitrile gloves and apron when working with any pyro-based formula.

I have some shopping to do this week. Thanks!

Kilgallb · Feb 12, 2023

Selenium will blind you. Wear goggles.

Here are the precautions from the Kodak MSDS

Individual protection measures, such as personal protective equipment Eye protection: Wear safety glasses with side shields (or goggles).
Hand protection: Wear impervious gloves and protective clothing appropriate for the risk of exposure.
Respiratory protection: If engineering controls do not maintain airborne concentrations below recommended exposure limits, an approved respirator must be worn. Respirator type: full-face positive-pressure air-supplied. A respirator should be worn if hazardous decomposition products are likely to be or have been released. Respirator type: acid gas See Stability and Reactivity Section. If

Safety Data Sheet
Revision Date: 07/31/2014 Z17000000763/Version: 4.2 Print Date: 07/29/2016
Page: 5/11
respirators are used, a program should be instituted to assure compliance with applicable federal, state, commonwealth, provincial, or local laws and regulations.
9. Physical and chemical properties
Physical form: liquid
Colour: colourless
Odour: characteristic, mild
Specific gravity: 1.32
Vapour pressure: 24 mbar (18.0 mm Hg) Vapour density: 0.6
Boiling point/boiling range: > 100.0 °C (> 212.0 °F) Water solubility: complete
pH: 9
Flash point: does not flash
Evaporation rate: No data available
Flammability (Solid; gas): No data available
Upper explosion limit: No data available
Lower explosion limit: No data available
Partition coefficient: n-octanol/water: No data available Auto-ignition temperature: No data available
Decomposition temperature: No data available Viscosity: No data available
Explosive properties: No data available Oxidizing properties: No data available

DREW WILEY · Feb 12, 2023

The most important thing is to have a good darkroom ventilation system which brings in air behind you and draws it away from you toward the back of the sink, or into a fume hood, and then out from there. Some people do develop allergic sensitivity to certain color chemicals over time, even-hypersensitivity.

Nitrile gloves and goggles, yes. Suitable organic-vapor respirators aren't cheap, and the charcoal filters need to be frequently replaced. They can be hot and sweaty too. Good ones from 3M come in sizes, and the industrial safety places selling them have smoke booths to test for fit. You take your chances at home centers, because informed personnel and a decent product selection are nonexistent, to state it mildly. Supplied air units work better, but are really expensive. Ordinary face masks are largely useless in this case except for dust. If you shop on the internet, try LSS (Lab Safety Supply). Grainger also offers safety gear, but won't have the same expertise.

I have my respirators stashed away somewhere. Haven't used those for decades, and I am sensitive to certain color chem. My strategy is to do color processing in light-tight drums outdoors in mild weather. That's the only way I can keep personally doing it, despite all my fancy fume extraction equip in the darkroom.

Maris · Feb 12, 2023

Years ago I was the technical rep for Eastman Chemicals in Brisbane, Australia. Apart from sales I ended up as the hot-line guy for anxieties and misadventures involving photo-chemistry in commercial and amateur practice. The worst case was someone who collapsed in a university darkroom while doing black and white printing.
It turned out that this person had chemical phobia and did a six hour darkroom session while wearing a double cartridge respirator. They were overcome by simple anoxia due to the restricted air flow through the respirator.
The lesson from this is to know exactly the nature of the vapour or dust challenge and choose the right respirator cartridges. It's not good enough to assume it's "all just chemicals innit?" and any face mask will do.
The other important point is that if the chemistry is nasty enough to require a respirator then the respirator by itself is not enough and the workspace needs an effective fume extraction system.

Incidentally, what are the volatile chemical challenges associated with the Tetenal colour processing kit?

DREW WILEY · Feb 12, 2023

Note that the kind of "respirator" specified on that linked Kodak MSDS sheet is "full-face positive pressure". That means supplied air hazmat style, not just a filter. The mask tightly covers your whole face, including the eyes, and is tethered to a hose and air pump, much like a deep sea diver. Those cost two thousand dollar up. MSDS sheets themselves have to take into account the hypothetical possibility an accidental industrial scale spill in an unventilated area, so spell out these things rather strongly in terms of actual hazmat cleanup requirements.

Most home labs don't keep large amounts of chemistry on hand, although just this past week some guy's chemistry hobby managed to blow up an entire row house in San Francisco, and burned alive someone inside. The alchemist was not there at the time, but soon arrested at a different location. One of those middle-aged Walter White types. Whatever he was developing sure wasn't photographs, perhaps meth. They haven't said yet. It's unbelievable how many big drums and pressurized canisters the hazmat team hauled out of there after the fire was put out. Be careful with those hobbies, folks.

Some common photo chem can be fairly dangerous if carelessly handled, like potassium permanganate, sodium hydroxide, and glacial acetic acid, for example.

How much exposure is too much? Dunno. But I did know a couple of lab owner who couldn't even walk into their own businesses without breaking out in hives. That was high-volume exposure to color chemistry over many years, of course. But they got in trouble despite their serious filtration systems. I'm not trying to spook anyone, but don't want anyone to get careless either, when it's really fairly simply for us low-volume users to mitigate most of the risk.

Sirius Glass · Feb 14, 2023

I would suggest a good exhaust fan or upgrade your exhaust fan be for putting a clothes pin on your nose.

DREW WILEY · Feb 14, 2023

Yep. Organic vapor cartridges clog up and need periodic changes at about fifty bucks a pop. You can't get much air through something clogged, especially if it's used for dust too.

We had a 3M direct account and would buy thousands of masks and respirators at a time. I was involved in EPA trainings for lead removal certification too, and we had entire palette loads of N93 masks on hand. Doesn't help a bit if not worn right. During the pandemic I'd see a lot of people with the masks over their mouth, but not their nose. Why bother? And with some color chemicals, you need your eyes covered too. We also distributed a huge selection of exhaust fans; but if no one knows the correct kind of fan or ventilation ducting for their realistic needs, there you go again. It helps to do some homework in advance, because you're sure not going to find anyone in some home center who knows a damn thing about it.

hoganlia · Feb 16, 2023

Hi everyone! I am awed by the response and the wealth of info... plus the time you all have take to answer my query.

So, this afternoon I did my first colour develop with Tetenal... I was a little nervous as I had heard that colour is more complext than B&W and I have yet to "master" that .... however, I decided to take the plunge and things went without a hitch. Yesterday I bought a GVS Elipse half-face mask and it was a breeze... not a whiff of chemicals! The negatives look great except for a straight line running right though the middle of six of the 16 images.... I have no idea how that happened. Anyway, tomorrow to scan and run through NLP

so my heartfelt thanks to you all... what a stroke of luck finding photrio....!

hoganlia · Feb 16, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
The most important thing is to have a good darkroom ventilation system which brings in air behind you and draws it away from you toward the back of the sink, or into a fume hood, and then out from there. Some people do develop allergic sensitivity to certain color chemicals over time, even-hypersensitivity.

Nitrile gloves and goggles, yes. Suitable organic-vapor respirators aren't cheap, and the charcoal filters need to be frequently replaced. They can be hot and sweaty too. Good ones from 3M come in sizes, and the industrial safety places selling them have smoke booths to test for fit. You take your chances at home centers, because informed personnel and a decent product selection are nonexistent, to state it mildly. Supplied air units work better, but are really expensive. Ordinary face masks are largely useless in this case except for dust. If you shop on the internet, try LSS (Lab Safety Supply). Grainger also offers safety gear, but won't have the same expertise.

I have my respirators stashed away somewhere. Haven't used those for decades, and I am sensitive to certain color chem. My strategy is to do color processing in light-tight drums outdoors in mild weather. That's the only way I can keep personally doing it, despite all my fancy fume extraction equip in the darkroom.

thanks. I have a well ventilated porch ... my stint today was about 40 minutes total. I mixed the chemicals outside and removed the empty bottle as well. I am not planing on dedicatig my life to this but just hope to enjoy it as it come.

hoganlia · Feb 16, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
Yep. Organic vapor cartridges clog up and need periodic changes at about fifty bucks a pop. You can't get much air through something clogged, especially if it's used for dust too.

We had a 3M direct account and would buy thousands of masks and respirators at a time. I was involved in EPA trainings for lead removal certification too, and we had entire palette loads of N93 masks on hand. Doesn't help a bit if not worn right. During the pandemic I'd see a lot of people with the masks over their mouth, but not their nose. Why bother? And with some color chemicals, you need your eyes covered too. We also distributed a huge selection of exhaust fans; but if no one knows the correct kind of fan or ventilation ducting for their realistic needs, there you go again. It helps to do some homework in advance, because you're sure not going to find anyone in some home center who knows a damn thing about it.

you guys are part of my homework! And yes, I am a keen student

hoganlia · Feb 16, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I would suggest a good exhaust fan or upgrade your exhaust fan be for putting a clothes pin on your nose.

ahahaha

hoganlia · Feb 16, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
Note that the kind of "respirator" specified on that linked Kodak MSDS sheet is "full-face positive pressure". That means supplied air hazmat style, not just a filter. The mask tightly covers your whole face, including the eyes, and is tethered to a hose and air pump, much like a deep sea diver. Those cost two thousand dollar up. MSDS sheets themselves have to take into account the hypothetical possibility an accidental industrial scale spill in an unventilated area, so spell out these things rather strongly in terms of actual hazmat cleanup requirements.

Most home labs don't keep large amounts of chemistry on hand, although just this past week some guy's chemistry hobby managed to blow up an entire row house in San Francisco, and burned alive someone inside. The alchemist was not there at the time, but soon arrested at a different location. One of those middle-aged Walter White types. Whatever he was developing sure wasn't photographs, perhaps meth. They haven't said yet. It's unbelievable how many big drums and pressurized canisters the hazmat team hauled out of there after the fire was put out. Be careful with those hobbies, folks.

Some common photo chem can be fairly dangerous if carelessly handled, like potassium permanganate, sodium hydroxide, and glacial acetic acid, for example.

How much exposure is too much? Dunno. But I did know a couple of lab owner who couldn't even walk into their own businesses without breaking out in hives. That was high-volume exposure to color chemistry over many years, of course. But they got in trouble despite their serious filtration systems. I'm not trying to spook anyone, but don't want anyone to get careless either, when it's really fairly simply for us low-volume users to mitigate most of the risk.

oh dear

tahomaphoto · Mar 6, 2023

hoganlia said:
Thanks for the reply...
As far as the B&W goes I am quite happy with water stopping. In terms of colour I am more concerned about the Blix is it is a bleach which I do react to. (I also react to nearly every perfume, much to my wife's annoyance... she loves perfumes) It's not serious but I'd prefer to find away to avoid problems. I never thought I would get into developing and I do love it so much so I want to make sure that I continue to delight in my passion in all it's facets

For a mask, my suggestion is to get a 3M partial face respirator, like the "3M 6000 Series Half Mask Kit with Pesticide/Organic Vapor P100 Filter Cartridges-Small". I think you want both particulate and VOC controls.

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