F-stop printing

RH Designs · Mar 1, 2010

Leon said:
Richard - I just put this into google translation but I had to do an emergency shut down, smoke started to spill out of my PC.

like I said, maths + me = plain wrong

Ha! Don't worry Leon, you're not alone. Once it gets to simple algebra it's beyond me as well

Mats_A · Mar 1, 2010

Lee L said:
The point wasn't to be clever. The point is that a new thread, useful as it is, won't have the participation of many experts who are no longer active on APUG, so you'll be missing out on that perspective if you choose not to read the multitude of f-stop printing posts already here on APUG. There are also charts of stops/time conversions in the old threads for making f-stop printing adjustments with standard enlarger timers that you might find useful.

Physics hasn't changed since 2002, and neither has f-stop timing in any appreciable way.

Lee

You are certainly right. And I have been reading about f-stop printing by doing Google searches. But the Internet is full of information and there is no substitute to asking a living person.
Sorry if I sounded harsh but I misread you as critique about asking something that has been talked to death on the forum already. This IS of course a problem for all forums. Noobs like me coming along and asking the same questions that everybody else stopped discussing 3 years ago.

r

Mats_A · Mar 1, 2010

Lee L said:
Physics hasn't changed since 2002, and neither has f-stop timing in any appreciable way.

Lee

Oh, I forgot. According to some physicists the physical laws ARE changing over time. Sneaky bastards!

r

jerry lebens · Mar 1, 2010

As an educator, I have a slightly different take on the f-stop method. It's an excellent method used by a significant number of printers and having many benefits. However, I've worked with a vast range of students, ranging from post-graduates to secondary special needs children and I believe that the majority of beginners would find the f-stop method more difficult to understand than the time based method. Consequently, I teach the time based method to all beginners and only introduce the f-stop method as an option (or extension work) once the basic concepts are very firmly in place.

My argument is that it's always better to start with familiar concepts and to build upon them - introducing greater difficulty only when appropriate : Since most beginners have a better conception of slicing up time with a timer than they do of increasing/decreasing light output using apertures, I start with time.
For the same reason, I always talk about shutter speeds, when I'm introducing the camera, before I cover apertures and ISO...

So, in answer to the question. Yes, try the f-stop method by all means, but don't try it before you really know what you're doing in the darkroom using the time based method. Otherwise, attempting to use the f-stop too soon may serve to set you back.

Regards
Jerry

Tom Kershaw · Mar 1, 2010

Jerry,

Isn't f-stop timing actually simpler to learn as the benefits can be clearly seen (even density change on test prints), and the concept compared to the function of aperture?

Tom

ann · Mar 1, 2010

i have the opposite reaction to my students than jerry,

for me, fstop printing is similar to the half and doubling of aperture /shutter speeds on the camea.
students understanding how the camera lens works apply a similar answer to printing.

we only change the time, never, the aperture on the enlarging lens.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 1, 2010

Ian Grant said:
f-stop printing's not that common, while there's a logic behind it in reality it's just a slightly different way of working and you van make excellent repeatable prints without ever using it.

Ian

Ian

The benefits of f/stop printing are numerous and far beyond 'slightly different'. Everything else is just 'why didn't I do this earlier?'.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 1, 2010

How do you explain to your students the time increments of shutter speeds? They are f/stop timing!

RalphLambrecht · Mar 1, 2010

Mike Wilde said:
Look at the 'way beyond monochrome' site. There is/was a sample chapter about f/stop printing with a sample printing chart. I now use it as my bible for printing test prints. Once I get the base exposure, I use f/stop 1/3 stops as adjustments for dodges and burns. Someties I will combine to with sprit filter pronting, but more usually with just a straight single grade filter.

The table is here:

Dead Link Removed

The whole chapter is here:

http://www.waybeyondmonochrome.com/WBM2/TOC_files/TimingExposureEd2.pdf

Ian Grant · Mar 1, 2010

Ralph, I suspect that many of us who don't specifically use the f-stop system are actually using the same thought processes, rather like many old school photographers use the old adage expose for the shadows and process for the highlights rather than the Zone System or BTZS.

I can certainly see an advantage in perhaps using the f-stop system if you're new to printing, but printing is intuitive after a certain point and no amount of fancy timers/meters/graphs.charts can substitute for experience.

But then Ann aptly sums it up:

ann said:
for me, fstop printing is similar to the half and doubling of aperture /shutter speeds on the camea.
students understanding how the camera lens works apply a similar answer to printing.

I've always thought in terms of stops/half stops when printing way before Nocon came up with his system, so little is new.

Ian

David Brown · Mar 1, 2010

billschwab said:
As one who spent years printing the "normal" way, once I started printing with the F-Stop method, I never looked back.

Wait! I was going to say that ... :rolleyes:

For me, f stop printing, particularly for making test strips, was a revelation. I started doing it with Ralph's chart, but then bought the RH timer when my "normal" timer suddenly died. (karma?)

MattKing · Mar 1, 2010

F-stop printing can easily be done using Ralph's chart (as I do).

F-stop thinking is the best thing for printing since sliced bread.

Matt

PS it's good for exposure too.

ann · Mar 1, 2010

i just tell them we are using the same relationship as an fstop but we are changing the time ; remember, i just came about using this on my own long before i knew there was such a thing as fstop printing.

they seem to catch on very quickly.

don't know what else to say, it works in our lab and with my students.

sandermarijn · Mar 1, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
How do you explain to your students the time increments of shutter speeds? They are f/stop timing!

Cameras have a logarithmic shutter speed scale because the subject brightness varies hugely (think powers of 10) from place to place, time to time, subject to subject, etc.

This is different in the case of throwing light onto a paper through a negative. The difference in opacity from negative to negative rarely exceeds a factor of 10 (with me at least). The variations in density within one negative are on that same scale.

Therefore it does make sense to 'work linear' in the darkroom and logarithmic in the camera.

sandermarijn · Mar 1, 2010

Ian Grant said:
I can certainly see an advantage in perhaps using the f-stop system if you're new to printing, but printing is intuitive after a certain point and no amount of fancy timers/meters/graphs.charts can substitute for experience. Ian

This sums it up for me, well said.

(Nothing against F stop timing, it's all the same thing eventually.)

ann · Mar 1, 2010

experience is always the winner. I have been printing for over 60 years, and rarely make a test print these days.

Sim2 · Mar 1, 2010

shimoda said:
Yes, I have read about the procedure. What I am interested in is finding out if it is used by a majority of dark room users now a days or more on the "fringe" so to say. The equipment looked a bit pricey.

r

Hi there,

Since I returned to black and white printing I started with the usual timing method (2,4,6,8,10 sec etc), tried f-stop printing using the table in the Way Beyond Monochrome book and have moved onto using an RH Designs f-stop timer.

As someone who originally shot and edited with transparency (slides) material, seeing the exposure on a test print in terms of 1/3rd stop lighter darker makes much more sense for judging how lighter/darker the print should be. It seems to be a case that getting 1/3rd or 2/3 stop darker/lighter is easier with the f-stop method than the linear method.

The timer equipment can look pricey but, for me, the savings in time and paper are worth the extra investment - besides the RH Designs timer is very adaptable and consistent.

Ages ago when printing at a press agency the neg would be printed without any test prints - we were so used to judging the density of a neg just by how it looked on the baseboard and contact strip but the f-stop method fits with how I print now.

It's hourses for courses really, what suits you as a printer best.

Ian Grant · Mar 1, 2010

ann said:
experience is always the winner. I have been printing for over 60 years, and rarely make a test print these days.

I would say join the Club, but you joined way before me I'm a few years behind maybe 13 or 14

But I usually make a test strip of 3 steps and mostly the middle one is very close, and dodging & burning is done immediately on the first print . . . .

You learn to read a negative, whether prior to or during a printing session, it's far easier than many realise but when you've printed a lot & particularly commercially and had to make snap judgements on grade, exposure & dodging/burning with other peoples less well exposed negatives it's very easy with your own images.

Ian

jerry lebens · Mar 1, 2010

Hi Tom,

Of course, there's always another way of looking at things...

You'd be right - if the students are sophisticated enough understand the concept of tonal density and (assuming you don't have one of those amazing f-stop timers) they can also understand and interpret the arithmetic tables required by the f-stop method. I would classify these as 'secondary' level skills, not unheard of in the case of the majority of darkroom beginners, but not something I'd take for granted.

I spent several years teaching deaf children and I think it gave me an unusual perspective on how people learn and how easy it is to knock their confidence. One thing was certain, teaching deaf children teaches you your own failings as a teacher the hard way : It's always your fault if they don't get it, never ever theirs...
Consequently I approach all my teaching from the standpoint of keeping it simple and never assuming prior knowledge. That way I can easily step it up a gear if I'm being too simplistic, but if I lose them, by being too technical too soon, I may never regain their confidence.

Timing is something that most people have done and so that's where I begin. Believe it or not, I've actually had adults who've stared in amazement at the enlarger timer and then asked me if they could 'experiment' with it a little before they went any further...

Regards
Jerry

ic-racer · Mar 1, 2010

I skimmed through most of the posts, so I don't think these two have been mentioned. Here are two more ways to 'f-stop' print:

Some Durst light sources have a variable density knob. Mine is calibrated 0-60 and has a range of 2 stops. So, you can see its numbers are just 10 times the log units. Set it in the middle (30) and think of it as 0.3 log d. Now it can be adjusted back and forth as needed. So, 1/3 stop = 10 etc. (how is this knob any different that adjusting the lens aperture?? This density adjustement aperture is non-diffracting; it is between the bulb and the negative).

The Omega D5500 Translator Controller has a density function. That one is graded 0-100 log units. Adjusting that control will automatically chanage the indicated time on the timer so you don't have to go to a calculator. So set it at 50 to start with and it can be used to make log exposure changes up and down.

Bob Carnie · Mar 1, 2010

I with you ann,
I hate test strips, make the print do an adjustment.
I am now using a % system for all my prints, low grade for initial print then a % of grade 5 depending on contrast of negative and how I want the print to look.
once I have a starting time , I use the filters in percentages and time in my head , actually was taught to count down the timer as a rule.
Dodging tool is very powerful this way.

ann said:
experience is always the winner. I have been printing for over 60 years, and rarely make a test print these days.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 1, 2010

Whatever works for you is fine. As someone said, I tried f/stop timing once and never looked back. Now, my test strips work, my print records make sense and all can easily be transferred to other print sizes. I'm convinced.

Mats_A · Mar 1, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
The table is here:

Dead Link Removed

The whole chapter is here:

http://www.waybeyondmonochrome.com/WBM2/TOC_files/TimingExposureEd2.pdf

Thank you for the free chapter. I am on the Amazon watch list to be informed when the book is available.

r

ann · Mar 1, 2010

i didn't mean to lead astray, i did at one time make test, but so many years and keeping the negatives consistence along with the same workflow has made those a thing of the past. However, i do keep records , old habits die hard so that one still hangs on. I also teach my students to do the same and so they can see with my notes how it can help them and when i burn and dodge i use fstop as a guide. Only, i never use the word fstop, just a stops.

Vincent Brady · Mar 1, 2010

Learning to 'F' stop print is like learning to stand up. Once you're upright there's no going back down.

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