Exposing to recover details in highlghts

Ko.Fe. · Feb 7, 2021

It is mixed workflow forum.
I measure highlights, shadows and take it in the middle. Develop as usual. I prefer negatives to be more dense.
In the darkroom I mask shadows and burn highlights more. It works even with single grade papers. Some are using split printing on RC. As long as you aren't using something special, here is no big deal.
For scans negative has to be less dense.

And don't try too use film as surveillance technicue. If you can't see what is in the shadow, why film has to see it?

pentaxuser · Feb 7, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
Come to the southwestern US for a vacation and see a SBR of 12 to 14.

Never doubted for a minute that such a SBR exists in the southwestern U.S., Drew. It's just that we in homely little Britain have no experience of such wild extremes that are part and parcel of the likes of such extremes that arise in the U.S

Quite a land of extremes in many ways compared to Britain

pentaxuser

Luis Filipe · Feb 7, 2021

Ko.Fe. said:
It is mixed workflow forum.
I measure highlights, shadows and take it in the middle. Develop as usual. I prefer negatives to be more dense.
In the darkroom I mask shadows and burn highlights more. It works even with single grade papers. Some are using split printing on RC. As long as you aren't using something special, here is no big deal.
For scans negative has to be less dense.

And don't try too use film as surveillance technicue. If you can't see what is in the shadow, why film has to see it?

Thanks for the suggestion.

To be honest I even like shadows slightly deeper then they should apear. My question was more directed to understand better how exposing and developing works in order to get more range when printing as it might give more flexibility to work whole tones.

I normally expose for shadows where is there something relevant to me.

pentaxuser · Feb 7, 2021

So Luis from what we have given you, can you say what conclusions you have drawn and what you believe you can do to improve matters in terms of getting better negative exposure and subsequent prints?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Luis Filipe · Feb 7, 2021

pentaxuser said:
So Luis from what we have given you, can you say what conclusions you have drawn and what you believe you can do to improve matters in terms of getting better negative exposure and subsequent prints?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Well, I think as everything it requires practice and understanding the mistakes.

As you said, while living in London I shouldn't face many issues regarding difference between shadows and highlights, but I think is important to understand how flexible the whole process can be in order to get the best print possible.

What I retained is that getting a good exposure is crucial, having a good understanding of zone system and knowing what your film can offer in terms of dynamic range. Also that I should takes steps thinking in the next one, like some limitations I could face while exposing could be fixed or corrected during the developing process with some different techniques. So all this must converge to facilitate the printing process and achieve your desired results and objective photograph.
There's also some tools you can apply during the printing that can extend this objective.
Basically all exposure, developing and printing play a game of reciprocity, they're all dependent a bit like aperture, shutter speed and ISO when exposing.

It all sounds somehow like shooting digital, camera raw and PS workflow but in a much more sensitive and intuitive process. There are no receipts but getting experience achieved from persistence and consistency.

pentaxuser · Feb 7, 2021

Thanks Luis. Maybe just avoid the U.S. Southwest and that 14 stops range of SBR for a little while

pentaxuser

DREW WILEY · Feb 7, 2021

High contrast should also be anticipated where there's exceptionally clear air, like a trip to northern Scandinavia, or the Alps. Photographers from London, Paris, and Montreal always give me pushback on methodology because they seldom outrun the scale of the film, so don't fully appreciate the differences between films. But IN PRINCIPLE, better prints will be obtained by understanding such topics. Even though I have what I think are better ways of doing this than the Zone System, I still recommend learning it, both for what useful ideas it does provide, and as a kind of common-denominator vocabulary for forums like this one.

Sirius Glass · Feb 7, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Never doubted for a minute that such a SBR exists in the southwestern U.S., Drew. It's just that we in homely little Britain have no experience of such wild extremes that are part and parcel of the likes of such extremes that arise in the U.S

Quite a land of extremes in many ways compared to Britain

pentaxuser

I am not Drew, but I draw.

Sirius Glass · Feb 7, 2021

voceumana said:
You asked how to record the range--that's one option. If you dismiss tools out of hand you're limiting your options for success. I would say, however, that at this stage, C41 process is pretty conventional. Final prints can be on any B&W material you want to use. The negative is just a step towards the final image. If bland is what it takes, then consider bland. And, by the way, "bland" is pretty much what you will get in the negative if you develop to cover an extreme exposure range--you're just asking for bland and don't know it. The drama can come in the final print, and will require dodging and burning in.

I have more flexibility with traditional grain and T-grain film than C41 films. Some people do not have darkroom to develop film, so they do not have a choice.

Luis Filipe · Feb 7, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Thanks Luis. Maybe just avoid the U.S. Southwest and that 14 stops range of SBR for a little while

pentaxuser

Or the south of Portugal, where I was born.

Vaughn · Feb 7, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
In scenes with the Subject Brightness Range [SBR] is fourteen f/stops, I can get that one film. Printing on paper takes some work.

About 13 stops SBR for this one. Might have been more...when the Pentax Digital Meter reads zero, there might be some darker areas. On the top end I got 13. Developed normally. I just happen to use a printing process that can grab all that info off the negative. But this is a rare extreme SBR. it would be very rare to find this range even under the redwoods wit hthe sun shining through.

Sirius Glass · Feb 7, 2021

Vaughn said:
About 13 stops SBR for this one. Might have been more...when the Pentax Digital Meter reads zero, there might be some darker areas. On the top end I got 13. Developed normally. I just happen to use a printing process that can grab all that info off the negative.

This is a good example of what I meant by getting a large SBR. I like the composition and execution.

Vaughn · Feb 7, 2021

Thanks. The photographer is always in their photographs...and sometimes their footprints. The lowest part of the cave opening was just under 4 foot tall. Even tho this is an old image (mid-90s), I still remember being careful not to fall when ducking under that low spot carrying the 5x7...footprints are one thing, but a print of my butt in the sand is another.

ic-racer · Feb 7, 2021

Expose to maintain shadow detail and process the film to allow the paper to render the highlights. This had not changed in 70 years.

DREW WILEY · Feb 7, 2021

Hasn't changed in 170 years. It's just gotten easier to do with the invention of light meters and better film emulsion quality control.

Bill Burk · Feb 7, 2021

Luis Filipe,

You originally asked about the math. I wrote an article about that which may answer exactly what you were asking.

My own website's down at the moment, I have to figure out why.

Meanwhile I uploaded the article directly to the comments of the resource here:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/divided-attention.77/

juan · Feb 8, 2021

ic-racer said:
Expose to maintain shadow detail and process the film to allow the paper to render the highlights. This had not changed in 70 years.

There’s the Minor White change in The New Zone System Manual of exposing for Zone V, choose developer for the shadows, and agitate for the highlights.

Alex Benjamin · Feb 8, 2021

Light Capture said:
For #1 metering with meter that can show you how many stops over or under are your shadows/highlights is the best. Manuals for most light meters have instructions on how to compensate when measuring white and black or other shades that are not equal to 18% gray. Maximum range will solely depend on your film/developer combo and developing times. It would need to be tested with some type of step wedge. Bracketing works well in most situations.

Zone system doesn't work very well with 35mm film. Development can only be changed for whole roll. Bulk loading short rolls could work when needed.

A little bit different approach is to use filters. Filters are very helpful with this. ND, gradual filters, Polarizer, even contrast filters can help to get exposure and contrast under control.

This would also be my approach to the problem. Once you've metered for the shadows and still found the highlights out of range, a filter could help with separation and contrast in the highlights (providing they don't interfere with shadow detail). If you're in B&W, add green, yellow or red to the list. It all depends, of course, on the situation and the color and nature of the details you want to bring out int the highlights.

Of course, in difficult situations like these, bracketing is essential.

Alex Benjamin · Feb 8, 2021

DREW WILEY said:
High contrast should also be anticipated where there's exceptionally clear air, like a trip to northern Scandinavia, or the Alps. Photographers from London, Paris, and Montreal always give me pushback on methodology because they seldom outrun the scale of the film, so don't fully appreciate the differences between films. But IN PRINCIPLE, better prints will be obtained by understanding such topics. Even though I have what I think are better ways of doing this than the Zone System, I still recommend learning it, both for what useful ideas it does provide, and as a kind of common-denominator vocabulary for forums like this one.

Be aware that photographers from Montreal have cars and that a two-hour drive north basically lands us in northern Scandinavia.

ParkerSmithPhoto · Feb 8, 2021

Luis Filipe said:
I know this must have been discussed many times before but can't find any answer for what I need to know specifically.

So, let's say that in a scene I find important to reveal plenty detail in the shadows but there's also a considerable amount of highlights. I will have to develop the film to recover these highlights, so:

1) in order to obtain a full recover what is the maximum range in terms of stops between the darkest perceptible shadows and the lightest perceptible detail?

2) is there any math solution to calculate the amount of time to reduce or extend the developing time, e.g., if the difference mentioned in the previous question is 5 stops, is one stop certain percentage in time?

All of these questions are answered in Phil Davis' "Beyond the Zone System" which you can pick up used fairly reasonably, although the prices have gone up for some reason. I think I paid $7 for my copy. It's dense, but there is no more powerful system of exposure and development.

pentaxuser · Feb 8, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
I am not Drew, but I draw.

Sorry Sirius for not addressing my reply to you and sorry, Drew, for mistakenly addressing my reply to you

I recall a film called Southwest to Sonora which is just over the border from Cal. How about a new one called "Southwest to SBR14." It is a stagecoach type of film and you who rides shotgun are the one who says things like " better stay in the stage, ma'am with you camera, this is difficult SBR territory" as you carefully load up the old faithful of Xtol

pentaxuser

Alan Johnson · Feb 8, 2021

http://pictorialplanet.com/advanced_photography/barry_thornton_two_bath_etc.html
In "Edge of Darkness" p94-5 Barry Thornton notes "...those using less precision in their exposure/processing controls, or with mixed subject brightness ranges on the same roll, can approach a similar look [to using the zone system] with my two bath."

Luis Filipe · Feb 8, 2021

Light Capture said:
Zone system doesn't work very well with 35mm film

Wait, what?

Never heard about that before. Could you or someone be more specific?

sterioma · Feb 8, 2021

Luis Filipe said:
Wait, what?

Never heard about that before. Could you or someone be more specific?

With roll film you are bound to develop all 12/24/36 frames in one go (e.g. 10 minutes at 1:1 develper ratio), so you don't have the luxury of tailoring the development time to individual frames according to their shooting conditions. Therefore, either your brightness range is the same on all exposures (e.g. you are in studio), or you have interchangeable backs that you can use for different development times, otherwise you are bound to give an "average" development time and then use paper grades to compensate.

Hope this helps.

Luis Filipe · Feb 8, 2021

sterioma said:
With roll film you are bound to develop all 12/24/36 frames in one go (e.g. 10 minutes at 1:1 develper ratio), so you don't have the luxury of tailoring the development time to individual frames according to their shooting conditions. Therefore, either your brightness range is the same on all exposures (e.g. you are in studio), or you have interchangeable backs that you can use for different development times, otherwise you are bound to give an "average" development time and then use paper grades to compensate.

Hope this helps.

Ahh ok. I was thinking in terms of metering.

Exposing to recover details in highlghts

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