Explotation - Microsoft Student Photographer contest

[dslater]

I make my living working with and writing software for Microsoft systems. I find your reference to Microsoft as "M$" offensive.

Hey man - how do I get a job working for Microsoft in Hawaii? I'm a software developer in N.E. with 15 years experience.

Dan

 

[Kino]

The thing that makes this contest deceptive is that MS states in the FAQ that all rights remain with the photographer unless they WIN, but the rules state that all rights are assigned to MS no matter if you win or not.

Many contests DO require you to give up all rights when you submit, but they don't put out conflicting information as MS has here.

You cannot tell me MS's lawyers didn't look at every single word of that webpage before it was posted.

It is deceptive no matter how you look at it and if you accept that as no big deal or OK for regular business practices, then please put me on your ignore list and let me know; I'll do the same for you.

 

[rjas]

can someone explain how microsoft could be exploiting anyone when they clearly state that entries will become their property?

because some poor college kid will submit an amazing image, not win the prize, and MS will use it for the next desktop background in WINDOWS SUPER DUPER OS 2014

 

[rjas]

I make my living working with and writing software for Microsoft systems. I find your reference to Microsoft as "M$" offensive.

You are aware your employer also owns Corbis images? It's alright to hate them. I do and I feel alright about it.

 

[gr82bart]

because some poor college kid will submit an amazing image, not win the prize, and MS will use it for the next desktop background in WINDOWS SUPER DUPER OS 2014

And that kid will brag about it to no end. It may even inspire him/her to take more amazing pictures. Maybe even become the next great photographer. Who knows. I sure hope so, 'cause this thread isn't going to inspire anyone.

PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING. A kid submitting to Microsoft knows full well that his/her image maybe be used like spilled beer on a cute coed's t-shirt. Ummm ... that's why they're submitting it in the first place. They want Microsoft to use it. That's the point.

Anyway, maybe I don't get it. The OP says Microsoft is exploiting the kids, so do others. How? Really. So far, no convincing posts.

Regards, Art. (Oiy)

 

[roteague]

And that kid will brag about it to no end. It may even inspire him/her to take more amazing pictures. Maybe even become the next great photographer. Who knows. I sure hope so, 'cause this thread isn't going to inspire anyone.

PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING. A kid submitting to Microsoft knows full well that his/her image maybe be used like spilled beer on a cute coed's t-shirt. Ummm ... that's why they're submitting it in the first place. They want Microsoft to use it. That's the point.

Anyway, maybe I don't get it. The OP says Microsoft is exploiting the kids, so do others. How? Really. So far, no convincing posts.

Regards, Art. (Oiy)

You are right Art. No one can be taken advantage of if they are a willing participant.

I know people will say they don't read the fine print, but frankly, fine print is part of life; I deal with it from my credit card company, when I buy a product. Fine print is part of life.

A year or so ago, the Hawaii Visitors and Convention Bureau did the same thing. I just ignored it, as I suspect most professionals and serious amateurs did as well.

 

[Sparky]

I make my living working with and writing software for Microsoft systems. I find your reference to Microsoft as "M$" offensive.

I'm BITING my tongue (it's purple now!!).

 

[copake_ham]

I make my living working with and writing software for Microsoft systems. I find your reference to Microsoft as "M$" offensive.

Robert,

Well put. But I suspect it's lost on the poster of the remark who probably makes a "living" flipping burgers somewhere!

Meanwhile, I'm having a real hard time understanding why people are all in such a dither here on APUG arguing about a digi-photo contest? :confused:

 

[roteague]

Robert,

Well put. But I suspect it's lost on the poster of the remark who probably makes a "living" flipping burgers somewhere!

Meanwhile, I'm having a real hard time understanding why people are all in such a dither here on APUG arguing about a digi-photo contest? :confused:

George,

Yes, this is really old news, this contest was announced months ago. Microsoft has a website dedicated to digital photography, and they have been actively promoting it - it is part of their attempt to tell people how well their operating systems support digital photography. At the moment, they have an article by Art Wolfe, among other professional photographers (it is on a section called "Professional Photography with Windows XP). I don't pay it a lot of attention.

 

[aldevo]

I bet the entries will end up in a place like this:

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/clipart/default.aspx

Royalty-free photo library has killed many photographers. This is NOT like free software developers killed professional software engineers.

Ryuji, you are very perceptive. Software companies and Web 2.0 concerns frequently hire graphic artists/designers who purchase stock photo content and then, effectively, rebill it at a mark up when they deliver their own services.

Think of the number and variety of images Microsoft uses for, say, MSN content. Bypassing the cost associated with the purchase of stock photos could result in substantial savings...assuming there's a reasonable yield of useful images. Maybe, maybe not.

That said, as an IT Professional called upon to review license agreements that span dozens of pages, I have relatively little sympathy for somebody who is not willing to read and digest a simple agreement of this nature. So for the student falling afoul of it, I expect that it will serve as a valuable lesson - and one thankfully learned before anything of real value is at stake.

Anyhow, it's digital. I never post anything of any real personal or commercial worth on the web as it would not be worth my while to enforce whatever copyright statement I put upon it. I recently had a Lithuanian Death Metal band (!) appropriate an image I put on my photo.net portfolio...

Maybe Microsoft can enforce such covenants. I've learned that I can't.

 

[bjorke]

...residents of the Province of Quebec and [potentially the Netherlands] are ineligible to participate...

Now there's your scandal, right behind the poor kid who was disqualified because he was ineligible for being from the DPRK and now his pic of the Dear Leader is going to be the only approved desktop image for Vista-Kr(N) for the next 15 years

Nearest Major Target Redmond!!!!​

 

[catem]

Meanwhile, I'm having a real hard time understanding why people are all in such a dither here on APUG arguing about a digi-photo contest? :confused:

Who's in a dither? This is an ethics and philosophy thread. The way photographers and their work are treated in the wider community effects us all.

The point is not whether or not Microsoft are letting people know of their actions, therefore 'buyer beware'; it's whether such an approach is a good and reasonable one for a major player to take.

Of course they can do what they like, and people can choose whether to participate or not.

I just think it's a shame to pass up the opportunity for better way of doing it.

 

[Bob F.]

They have amended the controversial Clause 5 to:

5. Rights to Use Entries.

As a condition of accepting a prize, you agree to grant Microsoft an irrevocable royalty-free worldwide license to reproduce and display the image, credited with your first and last name, in print and on the web for the purposes of only promoting this contest.

Ref: (Dead Link Removed)


Cheers, Bob.

 

[gr82bart]

The point is not whether or not Microsoft are letting people know of their actions, therefore 'buyer beware'; it's whether such an approach is a good and reasonable one for a major player to take.

Of course it is. Thousands will sign up, right?

I just think it's a shame to pass up the opportunity for better way of doing it.

? So explain the 'better way'. Let's read it. Seriously. I'd like to know what that would be.

Regards, Art.

 

[gr82bart]

So for the student falling afoul of it, I expect that it will serve as a valuable lesson - and one thankfully learned before anything of real value is at stake.

What exactly is this 'lesson' they will learn?

"Don't enter a contest where you could have a the potential once in a lifetime opportunity to have YOUR image seen on millions of distributed products"?

Seriously, what is it?

Didn't Ilford have such a similar contest last year where APUGers sent in their postcards. Winning postcard entry to be the image on thousands of Ilford boxes. I think that contest was geared towards adults with no complaints ...

Regards, Art.

 

[catem]

It seems they've amended the clause (ref. Bob F's post above). I have no problem with images being used in order to publicise the event - that's got to be pretty universal practice.

As for the implication of the initial post, that a photographer on entering (the fact that they would be students makes no difference whatever), is to lose all rights to an image is something completely different, and I really don't think I will use up any more energy explaining why I think that is the case.

(The winner of the postcard competition was not potentially giving up total copyright of the image - just allowing it to be used on one of Ilford's boxes).

 

[aldevo]

What exactly is this 'lesson' they will learn?

"Don't enter a contest where you could have a the potential once in a lifetime opportunity to have YOUR image seen on millions of distributed products"?

Seriously, what is it?

Didn't Ilford have such a similar contest last year where APUGers sent in their postcards. Winning postcard entry to be the image on thousands of Ilford boxes. I think that contest was geared towards adults with no complaints ...

Regards, Art.

Simply put, the lesson is to thoroughly read any agreement and understand its implications before agreeing to be a party to it.

If you understand and accept the risks; then go for it.

Trouble is...

There's a crafty bit of legal manuvering that is going on here.

Section 5:

Rights to Use Entries.

"As a condition of accepting a prize, you agree to grant Microsoft an irrevocable royalty-free worldwide license to reproduce and display the image, credited with your first and last name, in print and on the web for the purposes of only promoting this contest."

That seems benign enough, and it is...

but check out this little "nugget" from Section 8...

"You waive any claim of infringement (including without limitation copyright, trademark, patent, trade name, trade secret, etc.) against the Sponsor and Administrators or their licensees based upon access to or use of your Entry"

Section 5 explicitly grants Microsoft a license to use your image in accordance with the specified parameters. Section 8, on the other hand, absolves them (and anybody they license the image to) from liability should they chose to use or license your image without your content.

Me? I'd go for it. It's one image with a shot of getting me $20k in cash.

I'd have no illusions about large #s of folks seeing my name associated with the image, though. They are agreeing to show your name with the image only when presenting the image for contest promotion...

 

[gr82bart]

As for the implication of the initial post, that a photographer on entering (the fact that they would be students makes no difference whatever), is to lose all rights to an image is something completely different, and I really don't think I will use up any more energy explaining why I think that is the case.

OK I see what the root cause is. Seriously, have you seen the images Microsoft uses? Really, it's "camera club" in a box. Those are the winners. I bet after a quick view of the bajillion 'losers', Microsoft is doing us a great favour taking those out of the market!

I know, I know it's principle. Meh principle, schminsiple. If you enter and don't read, I'll let 'Darwin' take it's course. Though, I'm still of the position people who enter know what they're doing.

Regards, Art.

 

[gr82bart]

Some of you guys should never sign a mortgage.

Regards, Art. (Double oiy!)

 

[Kino]

Some of you guys should never sign a mortgage.

Regards, Art. (Double oiy!)

And some of you guys should never be put in a place of responsibility that requires ethical behavior.

Now that the rules have been amended, I have no problem with the contest. However, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that if a stink hadn't been raised about the discrepancies between the FAQ and the Rules, no action would have been taken.

I hope everyone you deal with treats you like a sucker and hides details from you, hoping you won't check all the fine print...

 

[gr82bart]

I hope everyone you deal with treats you like a sucker and hides details from you, hoping you won't check all the fine print...

LOL! Yeah. Wishing the worse on someone else is certainly taking the high road. All 'cause you disagreed with me on a public forum. Such class. Yet, very funny. Maybe it's Bahamavention time?

I didn't know we APUGers had such influence on Microsoft? We can't even influence Kodak, the last time I heard ...

Regards, Art (Dang. I've spent too much time in this thread. Where's the popcorn machine?)

 

[Kino]

LOL! Yeah. Wishing the worse on someone else is certainly taking the high road. All 'cause you disagreed with me on a public forum. Such class. Yet, very funny. Maybe it's Bahamavention time?

I didn't know we APUGers had such influence on Microsoft? We can't even influence Kodak, the last time I heard ...

Regards, Art (Dang. I've spent too much time in this thread. Where's the popcorn machine?)

According to you, that is not "the worst" but a normal means of doing business; hiding details in fine print and giving out conflicting information...

So, my wishing this on you should mean it is in your comfort zone and perfectly acceptable; what am I missing?

As to influence, yes we do have impact when we voice our opinion to any organization and the alternative, to sit and do nothing but make cynical swipes at people's intelligence, IS the very definition of not having influence.

You are right, we both have spent too much time on this thread and it is silly.

Again, I wish "business as usual" in spades upon you. I am glad you feel comfortable in that business model, but I refuse to accept it as normal.

Whatever you reply, you can re-read this and apply it to that; I'm done.

Now back to the regular program...

 

[catem]

I've spent too much time in this thread. Where's the popcorn machine?)

Art, you ARE this thread

 

[gr82bart]

Oh, Kino, Kino, Kino, you slay me. LMAO.

Regards, Art. (Two trolls in a caged thread, eh?)

 

[haris]

Doesn't Microsoft have enough photographs already? I mean, who is owner of Corbis