Explosion of Bullshiters

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removed account4

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i guess the only way to get ahead in life is to lie one's butt off, get jobs you aren't qualified for
and leave a trail of broken dreams .... frank was just lucky to be competent, and to be working
with one of the recognized leaders of the american architectural movement ...

====

jim:
i have always been told i should NEVER say i can't do something if a client or potential client asks ...
"get the job first, figure out how to do it later ... "
 

pstake

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I work for a consulting firm and was recently on a conference with a client and one of my colleagues. The client asked me a question and I said that I wasn't sure and that I'd find out for him. After we rang off the colleague said that I should never admit that I don't know something. I'm supposed to be the expert.

It has, however, been my experience (I'm 25 years older than this guy) that the customer will respect you far more in the end if you admit you don't know something than if you BS your way through an answer.

Exactly. If someone tells me that he or she doesn't know but will find out — I trust the answer he or she eventually brings to me and think no less of him/her. This can apply to anything. This can apply to "do you have any lemonade?" as well as "do you think it's benign?"

If someone tells me an answer and it turns out to be wrong — and that wrong information was used to influence my decisions — the person has permanently lost credibility with me. I make the assumption that everyone I deal with feels the same way. Consequently, if I don't know something, I just say so.

A theme that seems to keep cropping up is that people from this "second lost generation" which is really just behind my own generation, seem to be the greatest offenders. They carve their way forward on the bullshi*er's ethic. I assume it's related to technology, the ability to edit video from the crib, etcetera.

So, anyway, the people (from any generation, perhaps the very same) who choose to cultivate genuine talent and experience — who choose not to misrepresent themselves, not to market themselves falsely — who choose to say I don't know and do not portend experience they don't have, etcetera — those people will be overlooked in a society that values pretension. The pretenders will steal opportunities and they will be allowed to because the opportunity-givers are pretenders, too.

The worst effect is that the value of the artwork, of bonafide expression, will inevitably erode. The canon will be diluted by a bunch of people who spent their time faking it, instead of ACTUALLY making it.

And if the trend continues, it seems that eventually nobody will even know the difference between a liar and the real thing. Bullsh***ers will become the real thing; the bullsh***er's ethic will prevail.

And anyway, this story just plays out into something like Brave New World, perhaps. Something austere and unnatural.

Sorry I couldn't be more cheerful!

EDIT: kind of reminds me of the Howard Rourke versus Peter Keating dynamic in The Fountainhead, come to think of it.
 
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cliveh

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Exactly. If someone tells me that he or she doesn't know but will find out — I trust the answer he or she eventually brings to me and think no less of him/her. This can apply to anything. This can apply to "do you have any lemonade?" as well as "do you think it's benign?"

If someone tells me an answer and it turns out to be wrong — and that wrong information was used to influence my decisions — the person has permanently lost credibility with me. I make the assumption that everyone I deal with feels the same way. Consequently, if I don't know something, I just say so.

A theme that seems to keep cropping up is that people from this "second lost generation" which is really just behind my own generation, seem to be the greatest offenders. They carve their way forward on the bullshi*er's ethic. I assume it's related to technology, the ability to edit video from the crib, etcetera.

So, anyway, the people (from any generation, perhaps the very same) who choose to cultivate genuine talent and experience — who choose not to misrepresent themselves, not to market themselves falsely — who choose to say I don't know and do not portend experience they don't have, etcetera — those people will be overlooked in a society that values pretension. The pretenders will steal opportunities and they will be allowed to because the opportunity-givers are pretenders, too.

The worst effect is that the value of the artwork, of bonafide expression, will inevitably erode. The canon will be diluted by a bunch of people who spent their time faking it, instead of ACTUALLY making it.

And if the trend continues, it seems that eventually nobody will even know the difference between a liar and the real thing. Bullsh***ers will become the real thing; the bullsh***er's ethic will prevail.

And anyway, this story just plays out into something like Brave New World, perhaps. Something austere and unnatural.

Sorry I couldn't be more cheerful!

EDIT: kind of reminds me of the Howard Rourke versus Peter Keating dynamic in The Fountainhead, come to think of it.

Well put and totally agree.
 

johnielvis

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It's probably due to the internet and the speed with which bad information is generated and consumed and regurgitated. After a short time, the bad information pops up everywhere and, thus, become verifiable.

I don't think that it's done intentionally. It seems to me that these people actually believe what they say is true. They seem to not know that they don't know what they're talking about. And why not. Ignorance is bliss. They're not hurting anybody, right? If someone says that the sun goes round the earth, then why not? Why can't they be happy in their world? Just be thankful you're well informed enough to not be affected negatively by it and enjoy your day.
 

winger

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I'm not sure about the overall world becoming rife with BSers, but I wouldn't doubt it. 10-15 years ago, we had an evidence tech at the lab who would happily answer questions from the submitting officers about the testing of the evidence. She did it because she thought she was saving us (the chemists) time. Or that was what she said (I think she wanted to feel like she was almost like "CSI" and knew things they didn't). Problem, of course, was that she based her answers on the 5 % of info she actually had on the subject. The other 95% is pretty important in forensics. I can't count the number of times I had to run out of the building to chase down a guy and give him the right info or call afterwards and set someone straight. In several cases, it caused a real delay in analyzing the evidence. And it almost always made the lab look bad because the officer had gotten bad info from someone there. They didn't really understand that the evidence techs were just HS grads who had a relative in the state police.
And we were always taught to say "I don't know" when asked a question that we didn't know the answer to. Especially in court.
I also once had a co-worker call me in the middle of the night to ask how to do a certain test because a judge had just signed a court order saying we had to do that test on a suspect at a scene (not sure if it had been the judge's idea or an attorney's). The test was one that had been ruled inadmissible in court before I was born. So much fun telling a judge he can't order us to do a test that he can't allow in court (and that we didn't have the materials to conduct).
 

Truzi

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I agree that things are bad in this respect, but I don't know if it's any worse than when I was young. However, I believe it has become easier for people like this to find their way into positions where they are taken seriously.

Ironically, I remember reading a Platonic Dialogue that was in many ways similar to this thread.
 

ambaker

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The Internet (Google et al) has made it very easy to clothe oneself in a veneer of knowledge, so that it looks legitimate. However, scratch the surface and the truth soon becomes apparent.

I had an applicant in my office one day, who when asked about the best idea he ever had, launched into his presentation on how he was about to invent a perpetual motion machine. As the position required a little physics knowledge, it was entertaining to say the least.

He did not get the job.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 

lxdude

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waynecrider

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I don't know about the UK, but in the US I've heard any number of authoritative people spout utter nonsense on [insert topic] with a great degree of certainty......

You must be talking about our politicians.

What's worse is deliberate misleading statements for ones own cause vs what's right for the majority, and outright lies.
 

David Lyga

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Wayne, the problem is not with politicians but with the perception that they are made to have in that they MUST uphold the BS that is expected of them.

Simply listen to right-wing talk radio to get a sample of the BS that is EXPECTED by the public (in order to create a comforting world the does not exist, but SEEMS to exist in their fantasy). Just listening to the 'scam commercials' on such shows (geared to posture to the most naive amongst us) should be ample proof for what I say. - David Lyga
 
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moose10101

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I work for a consulting firm and was recently on a conference with a client and one of my colleagues. The client asked me a question and I said that I wasn't sure and that I'd find out for him. After we rang off the colleague said that I should never admit that I don't know something. I'm supposed to be the expert.

I also worked for a large consulting firm, and we were trained from Day 1 that if we weren't sure of the answer, we were to tell the client exactly what you told yours. Under no circumstances were we to ever "wing it", because wrong answers damage the firm's credibility. The only time anyone ever caught grief was if the question was something they were supposed to have been prepared to answer.
 

Dinesh

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No, before.

Then why did you post "No, you need to get it right in the camera" when others clearly pointed out that, while not easy, it could be done at the printing stage?
 

Worker 11811

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I have always been a person who naturally tries to find things out and understand things. I often say what I think is true but with the caveat, "If that's not right, let's find out what IS right."

I expect other people to say whether they think my information or understanding is right or not. If not, we go find out. Find an encyclopedia, look it up in a dictionary, use Google, use Wikipedia, read a book or even make a phone call and ask somebody you trust.

I can't know everything but I can learn anything if I try. Learning is about the effort, not in the knowing.

My problem is that I find most people to be lazy. They don't want to take the effort to find things out. They want predigested, pat answers. They don't really want to know anything. They just want people to tell them things. They don't want to do the mental work.

There is a saying, "Men value most those things which come at a cost." I believe that, if something is worth knowing, it is worth working to learn about it.

My problem is not with people who say, "This is what I think but let's find out what is true." My problem is with people who are too lazy to find out what the truth is. My problem is with people who are don't want to learn but who spout off with bogus facts and who are either too stupid or unwilling to find out the truth. THAT is what I believe bullshit to be.
 
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“Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Teh Ching
 

removed account4

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“Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Teh Ching



i guess the bs has been flowing for eons :wink:

maybe it just seems more than 1 in ten people is FOS
because now there are just more people ..

i'm really gullible, so no matter what someone says i tend to believe it.. :wink:
 

mark

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The internet has made it very easy to an "expert". And forums have given these "experts" a venue. Unfortunately this spills over into the real world and they become irritating.

As a teacher I deal with it all the time. Fortunately you get used to ignoring it.
 

jglass

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For me the BS meter went haywire when 24 hour cable news started up, requiring the filling of time with a constant parade of unqualified experts, lame speculation without facts, and opinion disguised as fact. That, and then, the internet of course.
 
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I'm expert enough to know that I don't know everything. It's always good to have a beginner's mind even though I've been at it for over 30 years. When I taught digital imaging at my local junior college, my students teach me a few things.
 
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cliveh

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Then why did you post "No, you need to get it right in the camera" when others clearly pointed out that, while not easy, it could be done at the printing stage?

Dinish, sorry I read the post too fast and didn't open the link and so didn't realise you were making reference to something I wrote in another thread.
 
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