Expired Benzotriazole

fdonadio · Jul 8, 2016

Hello, all!

I have been trying to source Benzotriazole locally (remember: I live in Brazil) and it's really hard to find. Distributors won't sell any less that 25Kg and resellers don't have any stock and can't justify ordering 25Kg from a distributor to sell a mere 250g to me. Life's a b*tch...

Well... Then, this guy at a distributor tells me he has some old stock, expired in 2014, from which he may try to ask his boss to get a sample from and... give it to me for free! Woohoo!!!

What do you think about using this expired benzotriazole? Would it be bad? Is there a way to test it without any fancy lab equipment? Should I run and grab this or keep looking for a fresh batch?

I searched APUG for "expired benzotriazole", but all I got were threads about using benzotriazole to develop expired film, which is not what I need...

Thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Flavio

dpurdy · Jul 8, 2016

My container of benzotriazole is so old I don't remember where or when I got it. Seems like I have always had it. Might be from the 1970s, 80s at least.
It is still a bright white powder and still works like it always did. Just sits in it's jug on a shelf over the darkroom sink.
Dennis

Gerald C Koch · Jul 8, 2016

It does not go bad. Mine is some 50 years old.

GRHazelton · Jul 8, 2016

My Father, a Chemical Engineer and my mentor in the darkroom, felt that most chemicals didn't "expire." Of course he had the special knowledge to assess the odds of a given chemical deteriorating over time. Medicines - a different story. Aspirin will break down, as indicated by the smell of acetic acid. My ex-wife took lithium carbonate for mania; the bottles listed an expiration date. Maybe for the binders, surely not for the chemical!

Photo Engineer · Jul 8, 2016

BTAZ, as we called it at EK, does not "expire" as long as it looks clean. By that I mean no discolorization. Just white crystals.

PE

pentaxuser · Jul 8, 2016

I sympathise with your problem of getting small quantities. Why not put in a wanted ad here on APUG?

pentaxuser

fdonadio · Jul 8, 2016

Thanks for all replies so far. I am still waiting for that guy to get back to me, but I am feeling very lucky.

Cheers,
Flavio

fdonadio · Jul 8, 2016

pentaxuser said:
I sympathise with your problem of getting small quantities. Why not put in a wanted ad here on APUG?

I thought about it, but I don't know about shipping restrictions for Benzotriazole, so I only considered this a last resort.

Internationally, it is not hard to find at all. Photographer's Formulary sells 100g for $18.95. B&H also carries it. I am pretty sure I could get it also in Europe through Phototechnik Suvatlar.

Cheers,
Flavio

GRHazelton · Jul 8, 2016

Search also for "anti-fog agent". IIRC even Kodak may have sold it under that name.

fdonadio · Jul 8, 2016

GRHazelton said:
Search also for "anti-fog agent". IIRC even Kodak may have sold it under that name.

Kodak Anti-Fog #1, IIRC. But it would be even harder to find by that name.

The good news is: I am going to get my 250g next week!

Cheers,
Flavio

john_s · Jul 8, 2016

I think it's a very robust chemical. It's used in recirculating boiler systems as an anticorrosive agent.

bence8810 · Jul 9, 2016

Good luck and if anything happens just order away. I got the same thing you mention above from the US and it shipped into Japan with no issues what so ever.

Having said that here in Japan pharmacies have the same thing and sell it if they know you good enough. You might want to try taking the chemist name of the solution on a piece of paper to a pharmacy, you might be surprised.

Ben

fdonadio · Jul 9, 2016

bence8810 said:
You might want to try taking the chemist name of the solution on a piece of paper to a pharmacy, you might be surprised.

I didn't think of that. I'm gonna give it a try, just in case.

Thanks!

Cheers,
Flavio

paul_c5x4 · Jul 10, 2016

bence8810 said:
You might want to try taking the chemist name of the solution on a piece of paper to a pharmacy, you might be surprised.

I find it useful to quote the CAS number - This avoids any confusion over spelling or alternative names (for benzotriazole, this would be 95-14-7)

However, if the pharmacies over there are anything like the ones in the UK, getting hold of any raw chemical is difficult - If there is the remotest chance that it might be used in illegal drug manufacture, an explosive, or is even slightly toxic, there is no chance of buying it. Can't even get mundane stuff like isopropyl alcohol from a pharmacy just in case we might be a wino looking for a cheap way to get drunk.

Photo Engineer · Jul 10, 2016

Or dead! Paul, that would be the result of drinking IPA.

GRHazelton · Jul 10, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Or dead! Paul, that would be the result of drinking IPA.

Please, tell us you mean isopropyl alcohol, NOT India Pale Ale!!

Photo Engineer · Jul 10, 2016

IPA when talking about chemistry is iso Propyl Alcohol which is metabolized by the liver and kills you if you drink enough.

IPA when talking Ales is India Pale Ale which is metabolized by the liver and kills you if you drink enough.

The good news is that you have to drink a LOT of the latter, and you are a LOT happier when you go!

PE

GRHazelton · Jul 10, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
IPA when talking about chemistry is iso Propyl Alcohol which is metabolized by the liver and kills you if you drink enough.

IPA when talking Ales is India Pale Ale which is metabolized by the liver and kills you if you drink enough.

The good news is that you have to drink a LOT of the latter, and you are a LOT happier when you go!

PE

Well said!!

pdeeh · Jul 10, 2016

I once woke up in the dark of the night with severe heartburn, groped my way to the bathroom where the PeptoBismol lived and took a swig from the bottle.
no lights.
surgical spirit ...

Michael Guzzi · Jul 10, 2016

From my experience the pharmacies here won't sell basically any raw chemical over the counter to individuals.

fdonadio · Jul 10, 2016

Michael Guzzi said:
From my experience the pharmacies here won't sell basically any raw chemical over the counter to individuals.

My experience is quite the same, but last time I asked for raw chemicals in a pharmacy, I was looking for hexane, which is a controlled substance in Brazil.

Cheers,
Flavio

fdonadio · Jul 10, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
IPA when talking about chemistry is iso Propyl Alcohol which is metabolized by the liver and kills you if you drink enough.

What about Everclear™?

Cheers,
Flavio

Photo Engineer · Jul 10, 2016

Everclear is almost pure Ethanol. However, if you think that is good, read up on the ternary azeotrope of Ethanol, Benzene and Water. This is how they make Ethanol at 95% or higher in some places. Make sure your "everclear" is NOT made by that method and is indeed certified as fit for human consumption - or in our case, photographic use of course.

PE

fdonadio · Jul 10, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Everclear is almost pure Ethanol. However, if you think that is good, read up on the ternary azeotrope of Ethanol, Benzene and Water. This is how they make Ethanol at 95% or higher in some places. Make sure your "everclear" is NOT made by that method and is indeed certified as fit for human consumption - or in our case, photographic use of course.

PE

Ron,

I've found out about what Everclear really is a couple of days ago, when reading about vodka (and then, about spirits). Here in Brazil, we use the term "cereals alcohol" (strict translation).

I would never drink that. Vodka and gin are the strongest alcoholic beverages I drink.

My first Google search didn't yield any good results about the azeotrope you mentioned. I'm curious: how much benzene is contained in this azeotrope? Is it bad for photography use – for example, for coating emulsions?

Cheers,
Flavio

Wayne · Jul 11, 2016

pdeeh said:
I once woke up in the dark of the night with severe heartburn, groped my way to the bathroom where the PeptoBismol lived and took a swig from the bottle.
no lights.
surgical spirit ...

Did it help your heartburn?

I once started brushing my teeth with antifungal creme..I'm happy to report I haven't had athletes foot in my mouth ever since

Expired Benzotriazole

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