Experiments with RGB-colored screens... a la Dufaycolor & Autochrome

[holmburgers]

Yeah, I think I'm going to try to grab an old Gossen Sixticolor. Very reasonable prices on eBay (there, I SAID IT, EBAY!!! )

 

[holmburgers]

Last night I had an epiphany and I have seen the light! (le lumière?!)

Basically, as was suggested by htmlguru, a computer monitor is indeed the way to go. There are many reasons...

For one, an SDTV has a resolution of 640x480 whereas a computer monitor is 1280x1024. That's twice the resolution!

Furthermore, TV has an aspect ratio 4:3 whereas 4x5" film is well, 5:4. A monitor is also 5:4... so it's a perfect fit!

Also, my computer monitor is flat (however, so was the TV I used in the initial reseau shots).

And lastly, I experimented with changing the color balance and it's as easy as opening up the old-school 'Windows Paint' program and defining a custom color. If you pick light yellow and then shift the white/black fader you can actually see the RGB elements shifting in balance (under loupe of course). Once you find the right color, save it and open it in a program that allows for a full screen preview.

Voila! A perfect, fully customizable signal generator.

 

[Banjopete]

RGB color screen processes

Hi all,

It seems as if my “early color” fever has come back after years in remission and after stumbling across this forum I decided to join up and share a few experiences I had. Let me start off by saying that I’m a completely untrained amateur and cannot begin to discuss intelligently such things as “reciprocity failure” and the like.

That being said, about 20 years ago I was able to obtain a 5x7 Finlay Color screen plate, which was a reusable reseau of color gridlines finely drawn on a glass plate. Using a diamond glass cutter I was able to snap the plate off in 2 useable parts (yes, that took nerves of steel !). I placed the larger portion in a 4x5 film holder to take single shots with my Speed Graphic and I taped the smaller piece into an old Voigtlander 6x9 roll film camera. Performing reversal development on the black and white film I was using and realigning the images behind the plate provided some very good results. The colors were indeed reminiscent of Autochrome though, since the gridlines were evenly drawn, the results did not have quite the same random pointilistic effect.

Well, I sold the Finlay plates a long time ago and don’t expect to ever find one again. However I’ve had another idea recently and having read your efforts to create a reseau by photographing a color monitor I thought I might pass it on.

Have you considered opening up an old color LCD appliance and isolating the color reseau so you can use it directly in your camera ? I recently started work along this line. I bought a novelty digital photo key fob at the local drugstore for about $9 and carefully dissected it. By carefully separating the glass “sandwich” and washing off the LC “goo” I was able to isolate the color reseau which, upon examination, is very reminiscent of the Finlay Plate, even in terms of density. I did the same with an old cell phone I’m no longer using.

Owing to the size of the screens in those appliances I came out with something which might be useable for say, 35mm. I haven’t bothered shooting through them yet as I figure at that size, if I were to want to enlarge or project the images, I’d end up with something resembling a photo composed of Legos… But I think the principle is there… If I decide to continue along these lines I might attempt to do the same with an old laptop computer or digital picture frame… Which would allow for use once again in 4x5 or 6x9… Just thought I’d throw that one out there. Anyone have any thoughts on this ?

 

[holmburgers]

Howdy Banjopete and welcome!

I had not thought of this, and now I'm most certainly thinking about this! Basically, I didn't realize that the screen (aperture plate) was inherently colored in the additive primaries. I've incorrectly assumed that it was colorless until the phosphorence from the the CRT tube (or LCD, plasma, etc.) acted upon it.

This would be an excellent method in terms of purity of screen and colors, I would assume. Disadvantages I can see would be the difficulty of getting this screen in the first place, the lack of ability to control the color balance and the fact that the screens could not be easily replicated without more monitors to cannibalize (not that this wouldn't be an enjoyable part of the project!).

I'm looking at the monitor I'm using right now, thinking how great it would look in contact with a piece of 8x10" film..... prrr.....

If you attempt this, let us know what kind of results you get and in the meantime I'll start looking at monitors in a new light. Seriously, thanks for the brain power!

I'm starting to wonder what kind of results these TV-made screens will produce. Will they make images that look like they're on a TV? I would have to say that this would be a welcome outcome to a certain extent.

 

[Banjopete]

Hey,

Glad you enjoyed that and I've enjoyed reading the work you've put in as well ! I think I've seen this Thomas Edison quote around here somewhere: "To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk".

As I said, no huge progress on the matter yet but the potential is there... I will dig around my messy apartment. I think I dropped the little screen from the LCD key chain behind a piece of furniture somewhere but would be happy to mail it to you for examination if I can get my hands on it. I think you trained folks might be able to run with the idea better than I, so I'm happy to share.

The most difficult part about isolating the reaseau that I encountered was the fact that the glass layers are "welded" together along their edges. Since the work I was doing was just a test I just sort of chipped away at the weld until I was able to separate the layers with a razor blade. I suspect a better job could be done with a diamond glass finishing file.

Once you've gotten a grid in a decent size wouldn't you be able to perhaps duplicate it and control color balance etc. by contact exposure on color slide film ? When I had the Finlay Plate I just reused it over and over and lined the pictures up individually for viewing. I suspect the grids from LCD appliances would be of approximately the same resolution, perhaps even better. The Finlay Grid, fine as it was, was not nearly so fine as the Autochrome starch grains.

 

[holmburgers]

Contact printing the grid is brilliant! Now I see serious potential in that for overcoming the resolving power of lenses and the distortions present therein. However, unless one were to use a very high-def grid, I think the resolution would actually be coarser, due to the magnification (or actually un-magnification... :/ ) when using a lens. But if it's good enough for the TV/monitor, it's probably good enough for photographic viewing.

I'd say you're more than qualified to be in this discussion, at least as far as my experience is concerend. Others here are actually trained, I'm just an ambitious amateur.

As for sending away the grid, I'd say hold onto it and try it for yourself. I'm going to focus on attempting my initial objective for now.

 

[Banjopete]

Hey thanx! Frankly, I'm probably not going to pursue the LCD screen business... I was working with the Finlay plates back in college when time and more importantly PATIENCE were in greater supply...but figured I'd throw that out there in case anyone wanted to take a whack at it ! I'm all for supporting those who wish to reinvent the wheel... Or build a better one ! Good luck with all that and I'll keep following the thread. I have some other "diabolical" retro photographic notions I'm working on which I'm not quite ready to unleash on the world !

 

[htmlguru4242]

This thread keeps getting more and more interesting! It appears that there are folks that are enjoy doing purely analog/optical things more than I do

The LCD thing is a fantastic idea though, and seems to me like it'd eliminate the potential low-resolution problems encountered with your TV RGB matrix shots.

In the meantime, I'm working on a set of R-G-B inks for an Epson printer. I think that I can get some nice results that way - better than with the CMYK sets we all use. I'm just waiting for a unit to go on clearance at Staples so I don't ruin mine. I'll keep y'all updated.

 

[holmburgers]

Wow, I for one will be very curious to see how an additive color set works. I think you're right, for transparencies it makes little sense to use CMYK.

Hey htmlguru, what will you be printing to? Transparency sheets or actual film? If there would be some way to print directly to film, that would be pretty exciting! What resolution is attainable with an inkjet printer?

As for the resolution of contact printing LCD screens, it won't be higher rez. because with the photographs I'm at significantly less than a 1:1 enlargement. However, those calculations were done on a SDTV and therefore 1:1 would've resulted in a very coarse grain; a CPU-monitor might be a different story.

Does anyone have a process lens optimized for flat field & close focus? My 180mm Symmar (old school, convertible type) might not be the most ideal lens for these kind of "tolerances"

 

[htmlguru4242]

I've been going to inkjet transparency. The screens look great, though I've not tested them. I don't see a reason why you couldn't use fixed-out film, though. I'll try it with some of the stuff that I have.

Inkjet resolution can be *very* good. Mine's rated and 5000-some-odd DPI, though the effective resolution is probably a lot lower.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Dufay essentially used C/M/Y/K.

PE

 

[holmburgers]

It looks pretty well RGB doesn't it?

http://sasesearch.brighton.ac.uk/glossary/dufay.php

Not refuting your claim, just curious.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I goofed in my post #36. Sorry. Dufay used R/G/B.

Apologies to everyone. Just refuting my own post which was totally in error. That is what happens when you turn off your brain and watch TV for a while. You can't think straight.

PE

 

[richard ide]

Watching TV will turn off your brain for you.

 

[David Grenet]

I goofed in my post #36. Sorry. Dufay used R/G/B.

Apologies to everyone. Just refuting my own post which was totally in error. That is what happens when you turn off your brain and watch TV for a while. You can't think straight.

PE

I have read about a process that had both CMY and RGB removable screens, but I don't remember who made it.

Somewhere I have scanned books which detail the Dufay process but I'm not sure where they are... If I find them I'll host them somewhere and post the link but don't hold your breath anyone!

I like the monitor idea, and might just try it. One LCD I looked at seems to use stripes of colour rather than dots which is also how the Polaroid instant slide film worked.

 

[holmburgers]

Give it a try for sure. I just took two pictures of my computer monitor last night. The resolution of those screens is MUCH finer than the TV. It was fairly hard to see the "pixels" and get them in focus on my archaic ground glass.

Also, the color I made in Windows Paint to photograph was noticeably yellowed, so it'll be interesting to see if that brings the balance closer to gray. If not, further refining will be made.

So far, all my sources have had the stripes of color rather than dots. It's the difference between shadow mask & aperture grill (according to wikipedia). Actually, while reading Friedman's "History of Color Photography" as recommended by PE, the earliest attempts at creating screens almost all used lines instead of dot patterns, except of course the stochastic methods like "dusting on". But there were many schemes that involved using gum and gelatin. A fascinating read for sure.

Very curious about this Polaroid instant slide film....

 

[Q.G.]

Very curious about this Polaroid instant slide film....

It was terrible...

Of course it was, else it would have lasted for more than the very short time it did.
So a bit of a "duh!" thingy, saying that it was terrible.

 

[Ray Rogers]

It was terrible...

By some measures yes, but OTOH, it was also very Beautiful!

 

[Q.G.]

Perhaps. Once you got over the initial shock of it not being anything like you expected to, you could begin to like the way it was.

Come to think of it, The Impossible Project appears to be a very authentic continuation of the Polaroid tradition with their first (also last?) offerings.

 

[Ray Rogers]

Perhaps. Once you got over the initial shock of it not being anything like you expected to, you could begin to like the way it was.

Yes. We agree.
For someone expecting Kodachrome or Ektachrome like results,
the shock factor would have been significant.

 

[holmburgers]

Just had a thought....

If I were to process the black & white material behind the screen-plate as a negative, I would get complementary/negative colors. You could then contact print this on RA-4 paper, or perhaps even use an enlarger

I'm not sure why one would need or want to do this, but I just found it intriguing enough to mention it!

My logic isn't flawed is it?, this would result in color negatives as far as I can reason.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes. We agree.
For someone expecting Kodachrome or Ektachrome like results,
the shock factor would have been significant.

"We" do?

Is that the Imperial "We", or are you "Weeing" on us!

Or, is there more than one of you?

PE

 

[Q.G.]

"We" do?

Is that the Imperial "We", or are you "Weeing" on us!

Or, is there more than one of you?

PE

There is Ray. And then there is me. Plural. Hence "we".

 

[Photo Engineer]

It was not quite clear based on the posts.



PE

 

[erikg]

I've thought about going a different direction. Get an unexposed autochrome plate, fix it to clear the emulsion and then sandwich that with a sheet of black and white film, expose process etc. Theoretically should work, right?