Experiments with fiber paper and print tubes

[logan2z]

I've posted before that I've been seriously considering switching from trays to tubes for making fiber-based prints. I've heard mixed things about the suitability of tubes when using fiber paper - some say that the paper will become damaged by the process (buckling due to expansion, damage during removal from the tube, etc.), others say they don't have any such issues.

I decided to test this for myself so I picked up a couple of 11"x14" print tubes on eBay - one made by Beseler another by Unicolor - and a Beseler reversing motor base. I inserted an 11"x14" sheet into the Beseler tube and ran it through the following simulated development process, using 100ml of water for each step:

1) Pre-wet for 30 seconds, then drain.
2) 'Develop' for 4 minutes then drain.
3) 'Stop' for 30 seconds, then drain.
5) 'Fix' for 2 minutes, then drain.

Removing the paper required a little bit of care since it had become adhered to the inside wall of the tube. I gently pried up a corner of the print and ran my finger along the top edge until it was mostly free, then I carefully lifted it out of the tube. The paper was undamaged. I also didn't experience any sort of buckling of the paper due to expansion. I repeated the experiment with an 8"x10" sheet of paper just to see if there would be any issues when printing that size. There weren't.

I'm still not 100% sure how I would develop test strips using the tubes, and am open to any clever suggestions. I could probably just use 5"x7" or cut 4"x5" sheets of paper for tests, although that feels a bit wasteful. I'd love to hear how others make test strips when printing with tubes.

I'm also not completely sure how much chemistry to use for each processing step. Beseler says 3 oz for their 11"x14" tube, but they seem to be assuming RC paper and I'm guessing I should use more for fiber since it is more absorbent. Any advice there would be helpful too.

Hoping this all works out and I can develop prints in daylight!

 

[Paul Howell]

When I use tubes and FB I would remove the top end of the tube and give the print a quick rinse still in tube, then using a hose would use the water to loosen the print from tube shell by peeling the top of the print away from the shell and using the water to gently free the print. It worked for me up to 16X20, I washed my 11X14 in a drum washer and 16X20 in a child's splash pools with a couple of Kodak siphons on my patio. I have switched between using trays and tubes. What I like about tubes is that chemistry is used one time, no issues with developer exhaustion. When I print just one or two prints no wasted chemistry. But I miss watching the print appear in the red light.

 

[logan2z]

When I use tubes and FB I would remove the top end of the tube and give the print a quick rinse still in tube, then using a hose would use the water to loosen the print from tube shell by peeling the top of the print away from the shell and using the water to gently free the print. It worked for me up to 16X20, I washed my 11X14 in a drum washer and 16X20 in a child's splash pools with a couple of Kodak siphons on my patio. I have switched between using trays and tubes. What I like about tubes is that chemistry is used one time, no issues with developer exhaustion. When I print just one or two prints no wasted chemistry. But I miss watching the print appear in the red light.

Thanks for the suggestion to use water to loosen the print from the inside of the tube. I'll give that a try.

What I really like about the idea of using tubes is:

1) Daylight processing. My wet space is a shared bathroom and I either have to leave it blacked out all the time (which makes the bathroom dark, obviously) or take the time to black it out for each printing session. There's a big skylight in the ceiling which is a real pain to completely black out, so I generally leave the bathroom blacked out all the time. But I miss the natural light in there.

2) The wet space/bathroom has a standard ceiling fan which works ok but it's not the best at eliminating chemical fumes. It would be great to open a window while making prints and get some decent airflow.

3) Using fresh chemistry for each print is definitely a bonus. I use LPD which is replenishable, but I'm not sure I'm going to bother with that if I use tubes.

I'm looking forward to making my first print using tubes. I'll post back with my results.

BTW, what do you do for test strips?

 

[mshchem]

When I started printing color, it was Kodak Ektacolor Professional Fiber base color paper. I developed it in a Premier brand floating SS tube. Worked great. I've developed B&W Fiber in Jobo Expert drums, worked fine.

 

[grahamp]

The real problem with tubes is that you have to get them dry between uses. Otherwise the prints may get stuck on insertion. and you must wash out the drum completley between cycles.

I have done 20x16 fibre prints in a Jobo drum combination on a hand roller with success.

Just take the developer capacity in prints, and calculate the equivalent number of large prints. Then divide into the developer volume. Provided the result is equal or greater than the minimum required for the drum, it should be good.

Unless you are toning, the smelly stuff is acetic acid stop bath and acid fixer. Doing one-shot the stop can be plain water, and you can use an alkali fix. That helps a lot in a domestic environment!

 

[koraks]

Maybe @gary mulder can comment; I know he's done this a lot.

 

[gary mulder]

TS wants to process in daylight. I always use open tubes to process fiber prints. So no daylight.

 

[koraks]

Ah gotcha; I didn't realize that. Thanks.

 

[logan2z]

The real problem with tubes is that you have to get them dry between uses. Otherwise the prints may get stuck on insertion. and you must wash out the drum completley between cycles.

Right. If this works out well, I'm going to stock up on tubes in order to mitigate this issue.

 

[Reginald S]

"Removing the paper required a little bit of care since it had become adhered to the inside wall of the tube."

I have "inlays" for my drums which will keep the paper and which allow an easy emptying the drums.

 

[logan2z]

I have "inlays" for my drums which will keep the paper and which allow an easy emptying the drums.

Can you please elaborate? What are these inlays made from and how are they secured within the tube?

 

[DREW WILEY]

You can cut very narrow strips of black thin ABS Sintra platic, sand any sharp edges, and glue these in linear fashion around the inside diameter of the drum using ABS plumber's cement. This will slightly space the paper at intervals away from the drum wall. But it might also reduce "wet cling" somewhat, so might increase the risk of a larger FB print collapsing during rotation. You'd need to experiment with a spare drum.

Or you could buy lengths of small hemispherical acrylic at a plastics store, and do the same thing, if you have a very fine saw. It's more brittle than Sintra.

 

[Reginald S]

@logan Sorry for not having them by hand, so I can't show a phoneshot thisadays. In preferring tray development I don't use them anymore.

In general the inlays are plastic sheets with some support to the paper's longer sides. So bending the sheet gives stabilty to the paper brought into the drum.


Wait - Is this link visible to you?

Jobo Drum 4551 mit Papierhalter 4511 und Magnet, Fotolabor, Proze

Verkaufe diese JOBO Drum mit der Prints bis zu 50 x 60 cm Größe entwickelt werden können. Die Drum...,Jobo Drum 4551 mit Papierhalter 4511 und Magnet, Fotolabor, Proze in Niedersachsen - Hatten

www.kleinanzeigen.de

This (Jobo) sheets are called "Formathalter".
I don't remember if they lock by themself and caused by the tension, but probably yes.


Btw I use Jobo Film Formathalter for developing 9x12cm / 4x5" film in a Jobo drum.
They fit different film sizes (Formate) and have to be clambed between the bars/bridges in my Jobo drum.
The same principle here: The film can't glue to the drum, and emptying the drum is easy...

Jobo Formathalter

Jobo Formthalter. Halterung für Papier oder Planfilm in Entwicklungstrommeln. Beschreibung siehe...,Jobo Formathalter in Sachsen - Ebersbach/Sachsen

www.kleinanzeigen.de

 

[logan2z]

Just made my first fiber-based print in a tube. It worked perfectly! My tray days are over

I used 100ml of LPD as that was pretty close to the 3 oz recommended by Beseler for the 11"x14" tube. Maybe I could get away with less but this really wasn't about absolute economy for me. Given the small amount of chemistry required, I may just forego replenishment and continue to use the developer one-shot.

 

[mshchem]

Just made my first fiber-based print in a tube. It worked perfectly! My tray days are over

I used 100ml of LPD as that was pretty close to the 3 oz recommended by Beseler for the 11"x14" tube. Maybe I could get away with less but this really wasn't about absolute economy for me. Given the small amount of chemistry required, I may just forego replenishment and continue to use the developer one-shot.

To make developer go further take the used developer, decant 50 mL (discard the remainder), add 50 mL of fresh developer and continue. This is what I did with the old Cibachrome/Ilfochrome process works perfectly. I would tend to at least 120 mL in an 11x14 tube, maybe just an even 100 mL.

 

[logan2z]

I would tend to at least 120 mL in an 11x14 tube, maybe just an even 100 mL.

An even 100ml is what I used, which seemed to work out well.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I've posted before that I've been seriously considering switching from trays to tubes for making fiber-based prints. I've heard mixed things about the suitability of tubes when using fiber paper - some say that the paper will become damaged by the process (buckling due to expansion, damage during removal from the tube, etc.), others say they don't have any such issues.

I decided to test this for myself so I picked up a couple of 11"x14" print tubes on eBay - one made by Beseler another by Unicolor - and a Beseler reversing motor base. I inserted an 11"x14" sheet into the Beseler tube and ran it through the following simulated development process, using 100ml of water for each step:

1) Pre-wet for 30 seconds, then drain.
2) 'Develop' for 4 minutes then drain.
3) 'Stop' for 30 seconds, then drain.
5) 'Fix' for 2 minutes, then drain.

Removing the paper required a little bit of care since it had become adhered to the inside wall of the tube. I gently pried up a corner of the print and ran my finger along the top edge until it was mostly free, then I carefully lifted it out of the tube. The paper was undamaged. I also didn't experience any sort of buckling of the paper due to expansion. I repeated the experiment with an 8"x10" sheet of paper just to see if there would be any issues when printing that size. There weren't.

I'm still not 100% sure how I would develop test strips using the tubes, and am open to any clever suggestions. I could probably just use 5"x7" or cut 4"x5" sheets of paper for tests, although that feels a bit wasteful. I'd love to hear how others make test strips when printing with tubes.

I'm also not completely sure how much chemistry to use for each processing step. Beseler says 3 oz for their 11"x14" tube, but they seem to be assuming RC paper and I'm guessing I should use more for fiber since it is more absorbent. Any advice there would be helpful too.

Hoping this all works out and I can develop prints in daylight!

as general rule, test strips and test prints should be processed in the identical way the final print is going to be processed to eliminate any processing variables changing print quality. This way, you can be certain that the final print will be identical to thetest print. You need to determin what that means to your test strip exposure and processing

 

[gary mulder]

A thing to consider is dat developing test strips en prints in a tube is that te ratio developer - paper surface will very considerable. Especially with warm tone prints there will differences.