I think they vary quite a lot. Of all the T70s I've heard, some sound reluctant and grinding, while others has a smooth satisfying sound to them.Speaking of taste,
I love the sound of the T50, and to others is fingernails on the chalkboard.
Maybe not if you discuss with stubborn idiots, who's intent and want is to "be right" and not learn new points of view and new facts. But there's refreshingly very few of those around here compared to other fora.Over the years here at Apug but also with camera collectors I learned that one cannot discuss camera design...
(And I even consider myself educated in industrial design.)
The T50/70/80 is a natural continuation and extension of the virtues of functionalist industrial design of the 50s, 60s and 70s.You can discuss taste and aesthetics seriously and philosophically, but not in the consumerist way you're suggesting. Any fool with money can buy branded goods, and believe they offer him bragging rights. The Canon T50 and T70 are not visually pleasing if your tastes run to a Nikon F or a Leica III, but encapsulate early 1980s Japanese design aimed at a western market, definitively.
This globally commonly spread false truism/platitude, is unfortunately still popular in the western world. But especially in the US it seems, where it appears to be big signal of virtue to utter as closing remarks to any discussion of (the evil, superficial) "design".Also, cameras exist for the sole purpose of taking photographs, the aesthetics of which have nothing to do with the desirability or visual appeal of the camera.
The T cameras look like A-Series in grey plastic, with the addition of an LCD. It's USP was all under the bonnet, auto-wind and focal length auto modes. It's impossible to imagine any Italian company putting italicized caps on anything. I briefly worked in photo marketing when the T50 came out, and face planted when I saw it. By the time the T90 emerged the design was German influenced, though the Japanese subsequently ran with the look sufficiently to make it their own.It clearly but subtly references modern Italian industrial design,
There were no indigenous Japanese design cues, if you compare the T-Series to contemporary cars or industrial design. The only oriental incursion is the Canon belt and braces logo which could have come from a Kei car and looks like an afterthought.Also it was absolutely not "aimed at a western market"
Sounds like postmodern French Marxist semiotics.People know more about aesthetics collectively/generally/subconsiously/in "the third place" than they are able to connote to others or explain to themselves, put on the spot.
Bad taste is decided by a self-appointed social elite, there is no arbiter. If CoCo Chanel decides ladies will wear little black dresses rather than Dior's fabric abundant New Look, that's what they wear. After the fact both attain cultural simultaneity, in the same way a Kenneth Grange Kodak box camera is as cool as a Leica M3.Bad taste persists, partly because people can't fully visualize and formulate what they actually want, and then go for nearest equivalent.
Or they are simply as previously alluded to, too stupid/undeducated/poor.
That's largely because health and safety has tied the hands of designers. Blame the EU and similar totalitarian bureaucracies.Right now, we seem stuck in a decades long rut though, with industrial design in general.
HCB also used 35mm lenses, but is less known for them. Images of him frequently show his camera with goggles. If that represents design efficiency, I'm a Dutchman.To stay in the photography realm: HCB used a Leica with a 50mm all his life. He could easily have chosen any fixed lens rangefinder of good quality, after they became available in the forties and fifties, and have gotten exactly as good results. He didn't.
The T70 logo refutes your argument. As do HCBs goggles and modern product synonymous with their branding iconography.To many people is seems that industrial design is something extra, that can be tacked onto a product
Yeah I kinda like it too. Don’t really know what contraption to compare it to?
The T cameras look like A-Series in grey plastic, with the addition of an LCD. It's USP was all under the bonnet, auto-wind and focal length auto modes. It's impossible to imagine any Italian company putting italicized caps on anything. I briefly worked in photo marketing when the T50 came out, and face planted when I saw it. By the time the T90 emerged the design was German influenced, though the Japanese subsequently ran with the look sufficiently to make it their own.
There were no indigenous Japanese design cues, if you compare the T-Series to contemporary cars or industrial design. The only oriental incursion is the Canon belt and braces logo which could have come from a Kei car and looks like an afterthought.
More like Carl Jung - Man and His Symbols.Sounds like postmodern French Marxist semiotics.
Bad taste is decided by a self-appointed social elite, there is no arbiter. If CoCo Chanel decides ladies will wear little black dresses rather than Dior's fabric abundant New Look, that's what they wear. After the fact both attain cultural simultaneity, in the same way a Kenneth Grange Kodak box camera is as cool as a Leica M3.
I have a book of vernacular interiors, an exhaustive photographic catalogue of European peasant houses from Ireland to Eastern Europe, and their aesthetics are far from "stupid". They're more colourful and cooler than any Swedish bent wood chair or William Morris floral explosion.
I fail to see that. Could you provide some examples?That's largely because health and safety has tied the hands of designers. Blame the EU and similar totalitarian bureaucracies.
He used a lot of other lenses. But the main part of his work, and his most famous photos where taken with a 50.HCB also used 35mm lenses, but is less known for them. Images of him frequently show his camera with goggles. If that represents design efficiency, I'm a Dutchman.
The logo (and the goggles to some extent) goes hand in hand with the overall design.The T70 logo refutes your argument. As do HCBs goggles and modern product synonymous with their branding iconography.
Luigi Colani (who just died this September) designed the T90.
Interesting! Thanks. Do you have a source on that? I’d like to read more.He did not. Canon gave the T90 project both to a team of their own and the Colani studio. Finally a Canon team amalgamated both designs into what we know as T90.
What makes you dislike the T70 so much?I must have a t50 and a t70 somewhere, or perhaps only one of both. What I remember of them is that these were by far the most annoying, least usable SLR's I have ever touched. It's odd, because the t90 is, apart from the noise and the way it eats batteries, one of the most pleasant, functional and intuitive cameras I've used. It's almost like canon first conceived the t90 but decided to strip everything that's good from it, resulting in the t50 and the t70, and then released the t90 as if to say "look, we actually had a very good idea, but didn't want you to know just yet." Needless to say, my t50 and/or t70 is/are in a box somewhere and unlikely to emerge from it before I die and someone will have to sort out all my junk...
We do not know of the arrangement, or if there was a arrangement at all, aside of ordering a design.I don’t see Giorgetto Giugiaro (designer of the F3, Nikon EM and L35AF) entering such an arrangement [with Colani.]
No, I meant entering an arrangement (with Nikon) where his design was significantly altered.We do not know of the arrangement, but as his his name shows up there likely was an arrangement, aside of ordering a design.
I must have a t50 and a t70 somewhere, or perhaps only one of both. What I remember of them is that these were by far the most annoying, least usable SLR's I have ever touched. It's odd, because the t90 is, apart from the noise and the way it eats batteries, one of the most pleasant, functional and intuitive cameras I've used. It's almost like canon first conceived the t90 but decided to strip everything that's good from it, resulting in the t50 and the t70, and then released the t90 as if to say "look, we actually had a very good idea, but didn't want you to know just yet." Needless to say, my t50 and/or t70 is/are in a box somewhere and unlikely to emerge from it before I die and someone will have to sort out all my junk...
Among others. Overall it just doesn't sit comfortably in my hand either. And it doesn't have the t90's IMO unsurpassed metering system to make up for its flaws. It's purely a personal and subjective thing, if course. Technically it's a good piece of kit.What makes you dislike the T70 so much?
Lack of aperture priority? Quite common on Canon and easy worked around.
Ergonomics was one of the aspects of the T70 that was praised in reviews at the time of release I see.Among others. Overall it just doesn't sit comfortably in my hand either. And it doesn't have the t90's IMO unsurpassed metering system to make up for its flaws. It's purely a personal and subjective thing, if course. Technically it's a good piece of kit.
Oh and yes, there are many cameras from the 70s and 80s with no aperture priority that I dislike for that reason. It can be worked around, but it's kind of nice not to have to work around things you don't like.
Of course.Have you ever had a look at Ettore Sottsass work? Memphis Group?
Post modernism was a white flag to design.very alternative post modernistic styles.
Monumentalism was pastiche. Change the typeface make it orange and it's the spirit of '66.One of the most extreme examples of this was the Mission 777 amplifier that was the logo, from 82
More fin de siècle. The 1930s meets the jet age. Dan Dare lemon squeezers for people who obsess how many cuff buttons are appropriate for leisure wear.Luigi Colani (who just died this September) designed the T90. He's was a controversial figure in design circles. And not in the cool way. I see him as kind of a poor mans Philippe Starck, who was again a kind of poor mans designer.
Fussy homages to Auto Union. A shadow of what they were in the 1960s and early 70s, when Japanese cars looked genuinely Japanese. Was it the Datsun Laurel that had embossed dragons on its vinyl seats? They subsequently became self conscious and Europhile, neither fish nor fowl.I at least find it hard to describe a distinct Japanese style of that time, with few words, even though no doubt it is there.
Jung's symbols are universal. It read more like Derrida's existential shrug.More like Carl Jung - Man and His Symbols.
The main reason is fabric suddenly became available again post-WW2. Women wanted to stop looking like men. Chanel, totalitarian that she was, took that puritanical view that the way to show a lady's wealth was to strip it back to nothing. Woman as machine. Interesting article: https://catholicherald.co.uk/magazine/coco-chanel-the-savonarola-of-fashion/Dior had tried multiple times with other collections. It was only when he went completely against the grain and took cues from turn of the century fashion that he succeeded.
Morrris owned the largest arsenic mine in the country. His wallpapers were killers. Literally.William Morris
Puritanical traditions, certainly. The dubious assumption that less is more. For people who assume churches should be austere, with all their fairground exuberance and doom paintings whitewashed to rationality.Danish MCM furniture was very much inspired by traditional
Paupers furniture for millionaires. The perfect backdrop to a Chanel dress.the same ways the Shakers where
Crumplezones. Brutalism. Brutalism with knobs on (postmodernism). Fire retardant boudoir clothing.I fail to see that. Could you provide some examples?
In retrospect. I remember the T-series coming out, and they looked tacky. I like them now because they are tacky. That's what 40 years of sentiment can do. The goggles were just silly. It's the reason why Leica offered progressively wider focal lengths in the rangefinders.The logo (and the goggles to some extent) goes hand in hand with the overall design.
It's a truism that the better the camera ergonomics, the worse the aesthetics. And vice versa. Somebody worked out that if you fill a fist-shaped space with hard stuff, a camera is much easier to hold. A Nikon F looks infinitely better than an F5, but holding an F for prolonged periods without a strap is for optimists only.In terms of ergonomics, even that quite basic EOS was a significant improvement over what was fashionable only a few years prior to it.
It was a long time coming, inevitable and a breath of fresh air.Post modernism was a white flag to design.
Monumentalism was pastiche. Change the typeface make it orange and it's the spirit of '66.
You just referenced the whole first half of the twentieth century, in the first part of the above.More fin de siècle. The 1930s meets the jet age. Dan Dare lemon squeezers for people who obsess how many cuff buttons are appropriate for leisure wear.
Fussy homages to Auto Union. A shadow of what they were in the 1960s and early 70s, when Japanese cars looked genuinely Japanese. Was it the Datsun Laurel that had embossed dragons on its vinyl seats? They subsequently became self conscious and Europhile, neither fish nor fowl.
Jungs ideas encompass both universal and personal symbols and notions, and those in the third place.Jung's symbols are universal. It read more like Derrida's existential shrug.
That is at least the commonly told story. One should always be careful in blindly accepting those stories, which are just cited ad verbum without much provenance attached.The main reason is fabric suddenly became available again post-WW2. Women wanted to stop looking like men. Chanel, totalitarian that she was, took that puritanical view that the way to show a lady's wealth was to strip it back to nothing. Woman as machine. Interesting article: https://catholicherald.co.uk/magazine/coco-chanel-the-savonarola-of-fashion/
Puritanical traditions, certainly. The dubious assumption that less is more. For people who assume churches should be austere, with all their fairground exuberance and doom paintings whitewashed to rationality.
Crumplezones. Brutalism. Brutalism with knobs on (postmodernism). Fire retardant boudoir clothing.
It was and is supposed to look "tacky". That is the whole point!In retrospect. I remember the T-series coming out, and they looked tacky. I like them now because they are tacky. That's what 40 years of sentiment can do. The goggles were just silly. It's the reason why Leica offered progressively wider focal lengths in the rangefinders.
I don't think we're going to agree on the life-enhancing qualities of corporations.
It really wasn't. Postmodern architecture was mostly ornamented modern. It plundered c20th design to create a palimpsest of clashing styles. Pop Art was its cultural forbear. It aped the declarations of French intellectuals, who claimed we'd entered an atemporal age where truth was negotiable, and meaning was a skin deep. Design had run out of new ideas, so churned out old ones with a new label. It was vacuous, and celebrated its vacuousness as a virtue.It was a long time coming, inevitable and a breath of fresh air.
Not the whole c20th, just the obsession with the aerodynamic, which counterpointed then then-dominant sharp edged look. Computer drawing tools enabled complex compound curves to be reproduced on an industrial level.You just referenced the whole first half of the twentieth century, in the first part of the above.
No, she really did enjoy the company of Nazis. The kindest description would be opportunist. Her clothes eschewed the pretty for the austere, which has unavoidable connotations in female attire.That is at least the commonly told story.
What straw men? I'm an enthusiast for the vernacular. Bottom up over top down, organic over the imposed. You described such design as that of the poor and the stupid. For Brits those sound like criticisms of Brexit voters who didn't know what they were doing. Or Hilary's "deplorables".I think you need to see the homes and interiors of the straw men you chalk up here.
It's lost because innovation is hidden behind an in-joke for those who thinks themselves culturally superior. A Hello Kitty logo on a small car is infantilism, arrested development pretending to be cutting edge. There was no need to put breakfast cereal packet iconography on a camera. Canon went back to a conventional typeface for its EOS cameras.Sophisticated whimsy is often lost
Batman was already broken as a story. Making it camp was a gag for Madison Avenue types. It's been ruined in different ways since, turning a revenge epic into a psychological discourse.A classic example is Batman 66
TV Sci-Fi was still in the spandex phase, there was no reflexivity in 60s Star Trek production values. It was a peace-love story that explored racial difference and civil rights issues with alien life forms.and the original Star Trek
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