Evaluating your own photographs

MurrayMinchin · Jun 3, 2005

Gotta love Google.

Mirrors, Messages, Manifestations: Photographs and Writings 1938 - 1968 (Aperture Monograph 1969) by Minor White.

Murray

David · Jun 3, 2005

I Googled Minor (given one interesting bit of his article he would, it seems like that ) and found that he taught at MIT from 1965 until his death in 1976. Since MIT is mentioned that has to be the time frame. The book was, Mirrors, Messages and Manifestations. I saw my first copy of it last week at a library. I have his Rites and Passages and never fail to come away inspired.

It is a deep article that takes time and reflection to sort through and probably a lifetime to enact.

It does raise one interesting thought about photography, namely that there seems to be but a small distance between what we do with photography and who we are. This is different than filling space at a convenience store as a job. We express the essence of our vision when we photograph and if we're lucky come up with an image or two that work.

I'm glad I'm not a typist, I wouldm't be very good and typing is no fun.

David H. Bebbington · Jun 3, 2005

MurrayMinchin said:
I saw a book of his (forget the name - something about manifestations????) in a bookstore just after I got into LF over 20 years ago that rocked my world...here was a guy that by composing rock forms and maximizing the textural range of his materials was creating amazingly powerful images. (Was it Mirrors and Manifestations?...

Just for the record - it's "mirrors messages manifestations", 1st edition published 1969, 2nd edition 1982. It has relatively little text, lots of astonishing images. My copy cost me a wallet-wilting $300 from the deeply eccentric Aperture Foundation about 10 years ago, was worth every cent and has been a constant source of inspiration ever since.

PS: 4 s/h copies on Amazon now, ranging from £125 for "very good" (US) to £284 for same (UK). "Rites and Passages" has fewer pictures, not as meticulously sequenced or as well reproduced, and a long biographical essay (good for newcomers to Minor White) and is more affordable - I seem to have acquired mine from the bookstore of the University College of South Dakota for $20!

Ed Sukach · Jun 3, 2005

David said:
I just proof-read the article (after submitting it) and it's horribly typed. I'll try to attach a pdf. Try reading that instead of the items above.

Received as .pdf file, and printed.

I don't think it is possible for me to thank you enough for your effort here, David.

THis is TRULY enlightening, in the best sense. Thank you again!

Ed Sukach · Jun 3, 2005

David said:
Some (Ed) on this thread have indicated an avowed disbelief in the possibility of a vocabulary to discuss such matters because art is too subjective. (Ed: I hope I haven't misrepresented your position!).

This does misrepresent my pisition, but only mildly. Far less than other distortions I have read.

I did not deny the existence of a "vocabulary" (this is kind of an awkward description, but I am at a loss trying to find another way to describe the concept). I wrote that a TRULY (I know that "perfectly" is impossible) OBJECTIVE criticism (if it is possible) is certainly rare: I cannot remember ever reading one "evaluation" (are we dodging "critique"?) that I could honestly say was "objective". My personal description of objective was, "to a great degree, free of human bias".

I'll admit it: I issued a challenge of sorts, "Give me an example of an objective evaluation!", not entirely as a product of animosity, but looking forward to an example that itself could be considered for content of human bias/ emotion. I DON'T know it all - far from it - and exploring another's point of view is invariably an adventure, rather than an experience requiring paranoid defense of my own belief systems. Translation: "It could happen!"

The responses were, largely, "Well, give us a photograph to evaluate and we will show you OBJECTIVE evaluation."

Setting my teeth on "GRIT", I offered my "Abstraction #27" for consideration (incidentally, published, and well received in a few Galleries, and artistic circles) as the subject to be considered - realizing full well the difficulties of crti -- uh ... evaluating ANY abstraction.

That brings me to the present. Still waiting.

Possibly, when it comes, we can dislodge this discussion from name-calling and proceed to something a little more informative.

blansky · Jun 3, 2005

Not wanting to rain on anybody's parade but that Minor White article:

Jesus, what a crock!.

In the words of my old grey haired mother, "just get on with it".

Take some pictures, print some pictures, learn and grow.

This guy sounds like he has way to much time on his hands.

The surefire way to gauge when people aren't getting laid..... the women collect cats and knick-knacks and the men become drunks and philosophers.

Michael

jjstafford · Jun 3, 2005

Ed Sukach said:
I did not deny the existence of a "vocabulary" (this is kind of an awkward description, but I am at a loss trying to find another way to describe the concept). [...]

The term you might be searching for is Semiotics. But realize that beneath all analysis of visual communication is the Word, or words, and paradoxically it takes many words to try to satisfy an academic proposition - so many that they ultimately rely upon a visualizable structure! See how that works - a self feeding feedback loop. I find it difficult to watch scholars skewer themselves in the trap.

Discourse analysis is a separate, more strident discipline which knows better; it relies on narrowing the scope of study to manageable bits, beginnings and ends are required - and they do not approach our concern with images.

Ed Sukach said:
I'll admit it: I issued a challenge of sorts, "Give me an example of an objective evaluation!", not entirely as a product of animosity, but looking forward to an example that itself could be considered for content of human bias/ emotion. [...].

Setting my teeth on "GRIT", I offered my "Abstraction #27"

I don't know if anyone claimed an objective critique could possibly be made. It would be the pinnacle of temerity

I can offer a word or two regarding Abstract #27. It is neither complex nor content-rich enough compared to similar forms which use outlines of a human body; too much airspace, not terribly well considered, feeling largely accidental for a contrived multiple image photograph.

As I said, Not Objective.

blansky · Jun 3, 2005

jjstafford said:
I can offer a word or two regarding Abstract #27. It is neither complex nor content-rich enough compared to similar forms which use outlines of a human body; too much airspace, not terribly well considered, feeling largely accidental for a contrived multiple image photograph.

As I said, Not Objective.

Well you took the words right out of my mouth...it must have been while your were kissing me....

Disregard the last part.

Michael

Donald Miller · Jun 3, 2005

Quote "The surefire way to gauge when people aren't getting laid..... the women collect cats and knick-knacks and the men become drunks and philosophers."

Jeez Michael after that I don't know if I should go to flipping burgers or get a sex change operation...

blansky · Jun 3, 2005

Donald Miller said:
Jeez Michael after that I don't know if I should go to flipping burgers or get a sex change operation...

I don't know either but your house is starting to smell like cat piss. Could be the previous occupants........

MIchael

Ed Sukach · Jun 3, 2005

jjstafford said:
I can offer a word or two regarding Abstract #27. It is neither complex nor content-rich enough compared to similar forms which use outlines of a human body; too much airspace, not terribly well considered, feeling largely accidental for a contrived multiple image photograph.
As I said, Not Objective.

Thanks. This does raise a question or two - points for discussion. I'll reserve them for later.

jjstafford · Jun 3, 2005

blansky said:
Well you took the words right out of my mouth...it must have been while your were kissing me....
Michael

Lips that touch water will never touch mine.

Jorge · Jun 3, 2005

blansky said:
Not wanting to rain on anybody's parade but that Minor White article:

Jesus, what a crock!.

In the words of my old grey haired mother, "just get on with it".

Take some pictures, print some pictures, learn and grow.

This guy sounds like he has way to much time on his hands.

The surefire way to gauge when people aren't getting laid..... the women collect cats and knick-knacks and the men become drunks and philosophers.

Michael

LOL....you crack me up.....As I said, anyone can make a simple thing very complicated, even looking at pictures...

David H. Bebbington · Jun 3, 2005

blansky said:
Not wanting to rain on anybody's parade but that Minor White article:

Jesus, what a crock!.

To be frank with you, Minor White the WRITER I can take or leave - but as I said earlier, Minor White as a PHOTOGRAPHER has been a major inspiration for me (and many others), and I would recommend to anyone to take an in-depth look at "Mirrors Messages Manifestations". I have been looking at pictures for over 50 years and have a large collection of art photography books - "MMM" is my most valuable single book by far.

Ed Sukach · Jun 3, 2005

jjstafford said:
Lips that touch water will never touch mine.

What was it that W.C. Fields said when asked if he drank water..?

WATER?!!? Fish **** in there!

jjstafford · Jun 3, 2005

Ed Sukach said:
What was it that W.C. Fields said when asked if he drank water..?

WATER?!!? Fish **** in there!

My quote came from Bathless Groggins. Probably before your time.

David · Jun 4, 2005

Thank you Blansky. I'm sure your thoughtful retort managed to knock out a couple thousand years or more of philosphical discussion. I now image that philosphy departments all around the world will be turning out their lights and heading for the nearest brothel to get laid . Sweet mystery of life, at last you found it!

Ed Sukach · Jun 5, 2005

Having quite a bit of "empty time" yesterday, I've read and re-read Minor White's Silence of Seeing - necessary due to the complicated "flowery rhetoric". His style is maddening - I value simplicity - but it does serve a purpose - to induce me to read and re-read, trying to understand what the hell he is talking about.

Certain passages resonate. He has put into words the exact form I use when "experiencing" a work in a Gallery (or elsewhere) for the first time:

"In various experiments with stillness I went so far as to play that I was a member of photographer Anyone's audience of viewers. I looked at (Anyone's) pictures in my silence and stillness. I saw more - deeply and sooner".

That "silence and stillness" describes, closely, what I mean when I say that "I try to wipe my internal mental slate clean, to set it up as a sponge, of sorts, to receive the language spoken by the work."

Again:

"If my understanding of his image is not the same as Anyone's, I do not protest to him, or try to contradict him because his experience is different than mine. On the contrary, I cherish his experience because it may give me a glimpse of an unfamiliar Anyone. I may like that part of him. Whenever I hear a man object to another man's response to the same photograph I get the shudders. They are both right, and when honest, beautiful. Whenever they treat honest experience as contradictions the barriers rise higher than ever between them. And blindness is heard as the sound of seeing."

That last sentence is a little tough to chew on, but .. I agree!!

This is all something to think about when we critique here, or write in responding to anothers point of view.

I have another nine hours of Gallery sitting scheduled .. so I'll study that article ... again.

Ed Sukach · Jun 6, 2005

That Silence of Seeing, by Minor White ... Two more passages ... then I'll give others here a rest. Personally, I'm going to re-read, and contemplate, until I'm fairly sure that it will become part of my photographic "being":

"Along about the middle of my life I came upon quiet and stillness as a preparation for seeing. Before that I went as seeing negatively, that is criticizing before I even had a chance to know the photograph. In that turbulent way I required a certain taste by devouring, gallery hopping, personal biases, prejudice, lying to myself, and imposing a grid of assumptions instead of waiting until a photograph, or subject about to be photographed, spoke to me.
Half of all this rancorous activity was useful; to this day I am not sure which half. Since I assumed that a measurement for excellence was required I had to go through all the uproar to devise a yardstick. The building part of it was useful. The error was in unconsciously coming to believe (that) the measurement, which I accidentally called "Spirit" was an absolute, or close to that. At the same time something like seeing was deflating my confidence, and making me think that I did not know one iota of what Spirit meant.

Then I discovered how to be quiet with myself before photographing anything. Seeing in stillness stripped me of all baggage. I began to find such deeper experiencing as left no need to criticize. When I neglected to judge, vision was richer. Thus for several years I sought experiences at the expense of criticism."

That "grid of assumptions" ... that has to be one of the most intensely debilitating influences in all of photography. It might be a good idea to devote some of my energy in an attempt to eliminate it.

"We could further elaborate on the qualities of the Critic. He would be familiar with his personal foibles. He would be able to discriminate his opinions from his knowledge, and prefer "considered judgements" to ego trips. He would have a breadth of knowledge of camera work to compare my photographs with others like it. If I could become so aware of myself, my hangups, and impartialities that I could commit myself objectively to isolate nourishing photographic contributions to potential viewers, or to the totality of camera work, I might try to perform the critic's task. I, however do not hanker to recognize my deficiencies. I want to remain a subjective photographer. To do that I must defend and cultivate my personal idiosyncracies, enlarge my ego to the size of a colossal olive. I would rather leave objectivity to the critic and damn him for misunderstanding my images and me whenever I feel like blowing off steam."

One comment: Me too.

Evaluating your own photographs

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