Eugene Atget Appreciation

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Alex Benjamin

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As a teacher, my aim was to attempt to teach a method of approaching artists' works — primarily photographers and filmmakers in this context — with the goal of drawing greater intellectual enjoyment. However, I never tried to "explain" or "decipher" works of art, as I believe the charm of art lies in the fact that everything is both apparent and simultaneously mysterious. The viewer does not need to discover or interpret something. The approach is the challenge, not the interpretation. This is achieved through familiarity with the artistic language, both generally regarding each art form and specifically regarding each creator. Consequently, my teaching was not based on history (in general) or the history of each art form (in particular), especially given that the histories of photography and cinema span only a very brief period. My objective was, and remains, to become acquainted with the works of significant creators and to recognize and appreciate their personal artistic language.

Of course, I do not disregard the value that a historical approach to the evolution of each art form can offer. However, what interests me most is the inexplicable presence of artistic genius in the world of art. It is true that a historian can trace, analyze, and perhaps even justify the paths of art over the centuries, but they will not succeed, armed with history, facts, economics, or politics, in explaining the emergence of the greatest creators. I acknowledge and respect historians' need to segment periods and, for the sake of thorough study, to seek connections and attempt to discern common characteristics that, over time and across regions, mark artistic evolution. However, I believe that in the case of photography (and cinema, which emerged from it), there are some more specialized characteristics that do not favor the search for specific directions. Even if certain categories are hastily identified, invented, and articulated, I do not think they contribute to the enjoyment of art.

You seem to admire your teacher very much, nikos79, so I'm sorry for the following, but a lot of this — not all, but a whole lot of it — goes against everything I've learned from decades of being an artist, of being a teacher, of reading, listening to and looking at artworks, of meeting artists, of reading art history and criticism, of thinking about art.

To me, as far as attempting to understand art, artists and artworks, the "I take mystery over facts and history" stance added to the sentimental and romanesque veneration of genius and greatness amounts to intellectual malpractice.

Again, sorry.
 

MattKing

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In the end, photography is all about enjoyment — immersing yourself in the images, seeing the world through the photographer's eyes, and feeling uplifted by the experience.

I am glad that this is what you find photography to be all about for you.
But I trust that you will understand when I say that that is a fairly limiting definition for what photography is all about.
I've spent my life around photography - sometimes I've made my living from or as a result of it, sometimes it has been simply a compelling interest of mine. And the number of people in my life who are involved in it is quite frankly more than I can count. Commercial photographers, photo journalists, laboratory techs, retail sales people, wedding and portrait and baby portrait photographers, sales reps, repair technicians, dental photographers (yep) and a myriad of others I've worked with and known each have different viewpoints about photography - and that is just those who worked in the related industries.
I've also met and talked with museum curators who have both photographic expertise in their own fields, and they no doubt have their own outlook on what photography is about - an outlook that is particularly relevant when considering Atget.
I can assure you that photography is about many, many, many more things.
 

koraks

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I can’t resist sharing another text from my teacher that speaks to that very sense of enjoyment.

What I see in that text is mostly a set of assumptions on the nature of photography which are debatable at best, and factually incorrect at worst. The way I read that text, the man has an incredibly restricted, limited view of the medium as well as the art. 'Good for him; what gives', you might say - but the implication is that he disregards many ways of appreciating or assessing photographic works based on his misdirected reasoning.

Let's see:
First and foremost, it is the only art form that does not owe its origin to religion.
Factually, we cannot know whether this also applies to other art forms or not. Humans have painted, sculpted and drawn in past ages long before we have any information on what religion they practiced. Moreover, the question whether an art form at any point (at its beginning, or somewhere along the way) was intertwined with religion is barely relevant for its potential for use, enjoyment and present or future embedding in a cultural context. So simply put, regardless if what he says is true (which is unverifiable, even though it's stated as a fact), it's irrelevant.

these images have neither materiality nor uniqueness
Define "materiality", and then apply that definition to a photographic print. The inevitable conclusion is that the author has, as said above, a narrowminded view of the medium.
The same applies to uniqueness; this argument likewise crumbles once it's scrutinized by operationalizing the definition and then assessing the medium on that basis.

Consequently, what matters is the artist's gaze and the personal world it expresses.
Which is just as true, or untrue, for any other art form. Photography isn't different in this respect.

One could even argue that photography, the most "objective" art form — using an extremely precise mechanical recording and reproduction of already living images — ultimately becomes the most personal, as the only intervention by the artist is the selection driven by their gaze.
One could argue, yes, but one would find their argument shattered to pieces upon closer scrutiny.

The only version of photographic art that might lend itself to classification into schools and trends reminiscent of those known from the world of painting is photography that seeks to identify with a visual approach, thus shifting the focus from the gaze and transformation to its material surface and the external management of its messages.
Right, couple of things happening here. Note the 'only' bit at the front - we're getting exclusive here. Thank you Mr. Enlightened Critic for guiding us to the Only Twue Way.
Moreover, the argument here seems to be that classification into schools is only possible on the basis of intent. There are two problems with this. Firstly, it's simply not true - art has been classified, put into taxonomies and typologies pretty much forever, regardless of artist's intent. Secondly, photography, like every other artistic medium, involves the inevitable making of choices w.r.t. technique and materials. Regardless of intent concerning content, these material ("material" in two senses: significant as well as pertaining to materials) choices affect the "external management of its messages" (is this text taken from a playing card for the monthly consultants' bullshit bingo??)

And so on, and so forth. Literally NOTHING of the argumentation holds up to critical assay. Ultimately, whatever conclusion is drawn, in this case one that forces the viewer to assess by intent, can only be shaky at best and most likely outright wrong. What's more - what's the value of this conclusion to begin with? " whether the aim is information or poetry, documentation or transformation. The boundaries may not always be clear, but the effort to discern them aids in approaching the medium with the goal of enjoyment." Is that what he has to offer? After a lengthy session of thesaurus abuse, he comes up with a vaguely formulated distinction between three types of intent, which in reality represent three dimensions that are not mutually exclusive to begin with. Good grief.

And ultimately what does all this have to do with appreciation of Atget's photographs, or Mr Jones' who lives just around the corner? There could be either of two things going on here:
1: We're looking at the intellectual excrement of someone who believes their thoughts are so uniquely inspiring, original and informative that they simply *must* be conveyed to a larger audience so that they may be enlightened in the same way he is.
2: These are the somewhat confused, but well-intended ramblings of someone who has a deep appreciation for photography, but struggles (don't we all!) to make sense of something that in its basis defies sensemaking, which is one of the main reasons it's so appealing.
I'm going to go with option (2), although I can't shake the impression that there's a dash of (1) going on, which I personally find somewhat irritating, but hey - who who casts the first stone and all that. Given that it's likely mostly #2, the implication is that the mystery that your teacher has "uncovered" here is a sublimation of his personal, private, subjective experience of wonder at the world he's looking at. As an entirely personal and idiosyncratic way of looking at things, the question again is how this is supposed to enhance anyone's enjoyment of images? For all I care, all time spent on reading that pseudo-intellectual dribble is time not spent looking at photographs, and thus takes away from the enjoyment more than adding to it.

What I hope is that Eugene Atget might enhance that enjoyment if you give his work a chance and dive into his world. If not, that’s perfectly fine — he may not resonate with you, or perhaps the timing isn’t right.
You seem to keep making implicit assumptions about my appreciation of Atget's photography. Whether or not, the extent to which, the time I may or may not have spent trying to, and the ways in which I may or may not appreciate Atget's works have for the most part not been mentioned in the first place.

If you wonder why I'm so fierce in criticizing the critique you posted, ask yourself why you felt compelled to enlighten people with your teacher's musings in the first place. That is the problem I'm trying to address. If a pair of Jehova's witnesses come knocking at my door in the hopes of bringing me salvation, I politely, smilingly and in a friendly way tell them to go take a hike. Which they do, and that ensures that the exchange remains friendly and polite.
 
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snusmumriken

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If a pair of Jehova's witnesses come knocking at my door in the hopes of bringing me salvation, I politely, smilingly and in a friendly way tell them to go take a hike. Which they do, and that ensures that the exchange remains friendly and polite.
I’m sorry to be critical, but I don’t feel that friendly and smiling is what you have been here. Not the usual Photrio welcome to a new member.
 

koraks

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I’m sorry to be critical, but I don’t feel that friendly and smiling is what you have been here. Not the usual Photrio welcome to a new member.

I'm (very) critical of what his teacher said, and of the confusion of criticizing a critic vs. the assessment of the actual work. Whether or not someone has just registered, if I disagree strongly with something someone says, I might respond as such if I have the time and inclination to do so. I'm not going to say "oh, marvelous" if I feel someone's quoting a load of codswallop just because they happened to have registered recently.

Don't confuse criticism of the message with criticism of the person. Nothing I've said constitutes the latter.
 

snusmumriken

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Going back to snusmumriken's comment on a lion, I don't know exactly which picture with its sculptural lion was is in question. I recall a seemingly simple one which can actually be rather compelling. But quite often, sculptural men and creatures in Atget's prints almost look alive - not necessarily real - but vivified as sculptures per se in an uncanny manner. So did his pictures of manakins and merry-go-round horses. That characteristic is probably one of the things which drew Surrealists to his pictures. You've got not only animisms and anthropomorphisms in them, but almost haunted renditions of that. The lion isn't just there atop its stone support with a clawed paw slightly reaching out, but reaching out at YOU.

It was in post #221. In this case the lion is a bit of a pussy, playing with a ball and facing away. Interesting what you say, though.
 

nikos79

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You seem to admire your teacher very much, nikos79, so I'm sorry for the following, but a lot of this — not all, but a whole lot of it — goes against everything I've learned from decades of being an artist, of being a teacher, of reading, listening to and looking at artworks, of meeting artists, of reading art history and criticism, of thinking about art.

To me, as far as attempting to understand art, artists and artworks, the "I take mystery over facts and history" stance added to the sentimental and romanesque veneration of genius and greatness amounts to intellectual malpractice.

Again, sorry.

In our online seminars, we mostly focus on critique — both of our own work (where 95% is usually rejected) and of well-known artists. Just last Thursday, we examined Bresson’s work, discussing which photos truly stand out, which are acceptable, and which feel more indifferent. I completely agree that critique plays a crucial role in developing a deeper understanding of photography.
 

nikos79

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I am glad that this is what you find photography to be all about for you.
But I trust that you will understand when I say that that is a fairly limiting definition for what photography is all about.
I've spent my life around photography - sometimes I've made my living from or as a result of it, sometimes it has been simply a compelling interest of mine. And the number of people in my life who are involved in it is quite frankly more than I can count. Commercial photographers, photo journalists, laboratory techs, retail sales people, wedding and portrait and baby portrait photographers, sales reps, repair technicians, dental photographers (yep) and a myriad of others I've worked with and known each have different viewpoints about photography - and that is just those who worked in the related industries.
I've also met and talked with museum curators who have both photographic expertise in their own fields, and they no doubt have their own outlook on what photography is about - an outlook that is particularly relevant when considering Atget.
I can assure you that photography is about many, many, many more things.

I agree that photography is about many things, and I have great respect for photographers with a clear purpose — whether it’s wedding, astro, National Geographic, majority of Magnum, dental photography, or conceptual artists. But I’m very much drawn to a specific kind of photography: creative photography. I’ve chosen to focus on what some might call 'useless' pictures — images that have no practical purpose and exist only because of the artist
 

nikos79

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You seem to admire your teacher very much, nikos79,
Kind of yes :smile:
Having read the transcripts of Sid Grossman and Gary Winogrand's lectures, he reminds me a lot of them. It’s no surprise, considering he was both a student and a close friend of Winogrand in the '80s. In Greece, he’s highly respected — practically pioneering creative photography in the country. Some of his notable students include Nikos Economopoulos and Panos Kokkinias, though both eventually took different artistic paths. Even Bruce Davidson once referred to him as his teacher, seeking his thoughts on his photographs
 
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Don_ih

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I think it might be prudent to extract this flogging session from the main thread.
 

nikos79

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What I see in that text is mostly a set of assumptions on the nature of photography which are debatable at best, and factually incorrect at worst. The way I read that text, the man has an incredibly restricted, limited view of the medium as well as the art. 'Good for him; what gives', you might say - but the implication is that he disregards many ways of appreciating or assessing photographic works based on his misdirected reasoning.

@koracs
I understand most of the critique you shared. Despite your harsh style, your points are clear and precise, and I get what you mean — along with the frustration it might cause you.

That said, if you at least agree with me that photography is an art form and not just a craft, then perhaps we can explore ways to approach this art. Whether it’s through texts from those who’ve paved their own paths, like my teacher, insights from renowned curators like Szarkowsky, or reflections from photographers such as Louis Stettner or Gary Winogrand, there’s a lot to learn and discuss.

My intention was never to impose ideas, nor to be a “Jehovah’s Witness” knocking on your door, for God’s sake! I shared my teacher’s views because I believe art is about sharing perspectives and opening up conversations. The reason I asked about the photographers you admire is that I was curious to see if we share some common ground.

For me, art thrives on criticism and comparisons. I find it important to discuss why Todd Webb, in my opinion, is far superior to Alex Webb — even though both are talented — or why I consider Martin Parr and Alec Soth to be boring and shallow. Sadly, I don’t see much of that kind of critique anymore, even from curators.
 

nikos79

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To continue in the spirit of Eugène Atget discussion here are some more photos of him next to Walker Evans to see the influences:
 

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albireo

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I think it might be prudent to extract this flogging session from the main thread.

You must be joking, Don. The emotional responses elicited by Nikos quietly offering his and his teacher's views on Atget and art are actually making this thread come alive. They are almost art in themselves.

@nikos79 - Just to let you know that I for one am enjoying your contributions to this thread very much. I'm spending my day looking after my toddler with gastroenteritis and I'm going through all your posts with interest between a projectile vomit session and the next one.
 

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You must be joking, Don. The emotional responses elicited by Nikos quietly offering his and his teacher's views on Atget and art are actually making this thread come alive. They are almost art in themselves.

@nikos79 - Just to let you know that I for one am enjoying your contributions to this thread very much. I'm spending my day looking after my toddler with gastroenteritis and I'm going through all your posts with interest between a projectile vomit session and the next one.

Hahaha glad to hear, wish him good recovery!
 

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You must be joking, Don. The emotional responses elicited by Nikos quietly offering his and his teacher's views on Atget and art are actually making this thread come alive. They are almost art in themselves.

Fine, leave it. But maybe it's time to stop needlessly ripping apart what the guy's teacher said. That guy, after all, is not here to either explain what he means or verify that he's being accurately represented. So writing an essay tearing apart what he is purported to have said is a waste of time. So make a new thread entitled "Let's all criticize what some guy we don't know may have said, removed from context, and possibly translated" and put the diatribe there.
 

nikos79

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Fine, leave it. But maybe it's time to stop needlessly ripping apart what the guy's teacher said. That guy, after all, is not here to either explain what he means or verify that he's being accurately represented. So writing an essay tearing apart what he is purported to have said is a waste of time. So make a new thread entitled "Let's all criticize what some guy we don't know may have said, removed from context, and possibly translated" and put the diatribe there.

It’s all good on my end, guys. I totally get if some might think, "Who is this new guy saying all this nonsense?" But honestly, seeing the passionate responses is exciting. Even @koracs, who gave me quite the blasting, I can’t help but admire his ability to articulate his thoughts and the time and effort he put into expressing his views. In the end, only things that resist objective explanation — like art, love, or religion — have the power to spark such emotional conversations and debates. 🙂
 

Alex Benjamin

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maybe it's time to stop needlessly ripping apart what the guy's teacher said

I agree, and I don't need to say more on the subject than what I've said.


For me, art thrives on criticism and comparisons. I find it important to discuss why Todd Webb, in my opinion, is far superior to Alex Webb — even though both are talented — or why I consider Martin Parr and Alec Soth to be boring and shallow. Sadly, I don’t see much of that kind of critique anymore, even from curators.

You're on a slippery slope, here. Critique and criticism aren't the same thing. Criticism is trying to understand artists and artworks on their own terms. It has no use for personal hierarchies of taste — i.e., that you find one superior to the other, or that you think one is a genius while the other is boring and shallow. Criticism of Alec Soth implies examining his work from points of view that are relevant to him — the idea of community, for example, which is extremely important in his approach to photography and his chosing of photographic subjects, or the use of the large-format 8x10 and how that affects the picture-taking and our reception, how he view narrative in his books, etc. Criticism has nothing to do with personal taste and opinions.

Art does not thrive on such comparisons. Never has. But one's artistic mind and imagination does thrive on attempting to understand things, and people, on their own terms, and not categorize them in advance.

Comparisons are always limiting because your deciding in advance who fits into the pidgeonhole and who doesn't. The reason why you don't see much of it is because people have long realize how sterile the "I believe A is more of a genius than B" approach is.
 

nikos79

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I agree, and I don't need to say more on the subject than what I've said.




You're on a slippery slope, here. Critique and criticism aren't the same thing. Criticism is trying to understand artists and artworks on their own terms. It has no use for personal hierarchies of taste — i.e., that you find one superior to the other, or that you think one is a genius while the other is boring and shallow. Criticism of Alec Soth implies examining his work from points of view that are relevant to him — the idea of community, for example, which is extremely important in his approach to photography and his chosing of photographic subjects, or the use of the large-format 8x10 and how that affects the picture-taking and our reception, how he view narrative in his books, etc. Criticism has nothing to do with personal taste and opinions.

Art does not thrive on such comparisons. Never has. But one's artistic mind and imagination does thrive on attempting to understand things, and people, on their own terms, and not categorize them in advance.

Comparisons are always limiting because your deciding in advance who fits into the pidgeonhole and who doesn't. The reason why you don't see much of it is because people have long realize how sterile the "I believe A is more of a genius than B" approach is.

Perhaps it’s better to steer away from the slippery slope of comparisons, as you suggested, and instead embrace André Malraux’s concept of the "imaginary museum." In his view, the imaginary museum is a collection of all the art we’ve encountered — whether through experiences, books, films, or the vast reaches of the internet. Over time, these experiences accumulate in our minds, creating a unique and personal museum. It is within this space that we select and keep the pieces that resonate with us, that move us, and that speak to our individual experiences.

As such, something from the distant past, like Eugène Atget’s work, can be as contemporary to us as anything else that grabs our attention and stirs us deeply — as Peter Brook so eloquently put it, "contemporary is anything that grabs you by the throat." Conversely, certain works or artists, like Martin Parr for me, might not find a place in my own imaginary museum, though I can’t fully explain why — it’s simply personal. Ultimately, it’s this personal connection that defines our imaginary museum, and it is this subjective resonance that gives art its enduring value.
 

Don_ih

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It’s all good on my end, guys.

I couldn't care less if the argument was all levelled at you, since you're here.

some more photos of him next to Walker Evans to see the influences

I don't see any illustration of influence in those photos. Influence isn't necessarily readily available to be seen in individual examples but may be understood from the work overall. Or it may be so ephemeral, it isn't noticeable at all.

Ultimately, it’s this personal connection that defines our imaginary museum, and it is this subjective resonance that gives art its enduring value.

Subjective resonance may be what gives art value for you personally - but that all sounds like a way to objectively devalue what you don't like. So, when someone says to you, "Isn't this photo by Martin Parr great?" you can feel confident telling them "It's crap."
 

nikos79

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Subjective resonance may be what gives art value for you personally - but that all sounds like a way to objectively devalue what you don't like. So, when someone says to you, "Isn't this photo by Martin Parr great?" you can feel confident telling them "It's crap."

I wouldn’t say it’s a “crap” photo, but I might describe it, knowing Martin Parr's work, as a "smart" photo — one that feels somewhat easy and overt, lacking deeper substance. This comparison comes after spending time with many different works from various artists. That’s what I mean when I say comparisons are essential. They only have meaning when we are familiar with a broader range of works and styles.

However, if my opinion feels strange to someone else, that’s entirely fine — I respect it completely. As Gary Winogrand once said when a journalist mentioned she didn’t like his work, "If you like to eat grass, I can’t tell you anything about it." When I share my views, it’s not to convince anyone; I simply want to share my perspective. I’m genuinely interested in hearing opposing views and excited to find others whose tastes and ideas align more closely with mine. Art, at the end of the day, is all about personal resonance, and that’s what makes these discussions so enriching.
 

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I don't see any illustration of influence in those photos. Influence isn't necessarily readily available to be seen in individual examples but may be understood from the work overall. Or it may be so ephemeral, it isn't noticeable at all.

Think that before Walker Evans no-one dared to use the absolute description in his photographs. This is something he got from Atget. They may not be directly linked but indirectly I see a lot of connections:
The detached, objective manner — a clear-eyed documentation that strips away the romanticism often associated with the subject matter. There’s no attempt to make the scene look beautiful or dramatic; it’s simply presented as it is. This clinical approach that quiet, observational gaze and many more...
 

nikos79

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I couldn't care less if the argument was all levelled at you, since you're here.

Ah, I see what you mean. Unfortunately, there’s not much I can do about it. My teacher avoids social media altogether; he only uses the internet to search for new and talented photographers.

In fact, he’s put together a great list of influential photographers and their work, which you can check out here:

It’s a fantastic resource for anyone looking to discover new perspectives in photography!
 

Alex Benjamin

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The detached, objective manner — a clear-eyed documentation that strips away the romanticism often associated with the subject matter. There’s no attempt to make the scene look beautiful or dramatic; it’s simply presented as it is. This clinical approach that quiet, observational gaze and many more...

He actually got that from Flaubert.

And although it may seem like the scene is "simply presented," Walker Evans used all the possibilities offered by the medium to get the effect he wanted. For example, he did a lot of experiments in cropping, attempting to reach what he wanted visually.

Another great example is Joe's Auto Graveyard. He purposefully chose a long lens in order to get the effect of the cars piled up. The other shots from that day show how he tried different points of view with different lenses before "getting it right". The effect is dramatic, and voluntarily so. Evans was a great crafstman.

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lacking deeper substance

Looking for "depth" and "substance" is a Romantic trap one has to learn not to fall into if one truly wants to appreciate photography. Sometimes, it's all about the surface, and that's as valuable as any depth one sees or imagines.
 

Alex Benjamin

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And this. Both beautiful and dramatic.

walker-evans-houses-and-billboards-in-atlanta.jpg
 
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