ETTR or ETTL

[Nikon 2]

Videos on the subject of shooting early morning when the sun is coming up either say to shoot by ETTR or ETTL!
I’d like to have the sky intact, no burn out, and as much as the foreground usable.
Which technique do you suggest…

 

[koraks]

ETTR or ETTL!

I interpret this as "Expose To The Right" resp. "Expose To The Left", both terms which are used in the context of digital photography, where the exposure is set to bunch the histogram to the right resp. left. Is this what you mean?

Having said that, ETTR risks clipping highlights while ETTL risks clipping shadows. Proponents of either will argue that you choose exposure to limit clipping to the bare minimum, but the tradeoff/compromise leans in opposite directions.

The general rule of thumb is that in digital, like when shooting slides, clipped highlights are unrecoverable, while deep shadows nearly always contain some detail. In this sense, ETTR ETTL is less risky than ETTL ETTR. However, it care is taken while applying ETTL ETTR that no (relevant) highlights are clipped, the net result is virtually the same in terms of what you can do with the recorded image in post processing and printing.

So the conclusion has been since about the 19th century and the invention of photography: decide which detail is important and try not to lose it. Whether you use ETTL, ETTR, Zone System or something Beyond that - really, whatever. The net result isn't that different in the end; differences in s/n ratio between ETTL and ETTR are in practice often not very relevant.

I’d like to have the sky intact, no burn out

So there - don't blow out the sky. Doesn't matter how you call it. Just take a meter reading and ensure it doesn't clip any channel into saturation. Use the histogram on your digital camera to verify and reshoot if necessary. Err to the side of underexposure on digital and slides, and to the side of overexposure when shooting negative film. That's pretty much all there is to it.

 

[Nikon 2]

I interpret this as "Expose To The Right" resp. "Expose To The Left", both terms which are used in the context of digital photography, where the exposure is set to bunch the histogram to the right resp. left. Is this what you mean?

Having said that, ETTR risks clipping highlights while ETTL risks clipping shadows. Proponents of either will argue that you choose exposure to limit clipping to the bare minimum, but the tradeoff/compromise leans in opposite directions.

The general rule of thumb is that in digital, like when shooting slides, clipped highlights are unrecoverable, while deep shadows nearly always contain some detail. In this sense, ETTR is less risky than ETTL. However, it care is taken while applying ETTL that no (relevant) highlights are clipped, the net result is virtually the same in terms of what you can do with the recorded image in post processing and printing.

So the conclusion has been since about the 19th century and the invention of photography: decide which detail is important and try not to lose it. Whether you use ETTL, ETTR, Zone System or something Beyond that - really, whatever. The net result isn't that different in the end; differences in s/n ratio between ETTL and ETTR are in practice often not very relevant.




So there - don't blow out the sky. Doesn't matter how you call it. Just take a meter reading and ensure it doesn't clip any channel into saturation. Use the histogram on your digital camera to verify and reshoot if necessary. Err to the side of underexposure on digital and slides, and to the side of overexposure when shooting negative film. That's pretty much all there is to it.

 

[nmp]

If you can't make up your mind, take both and combine in Photoshop 50:50 and you will have the full range. Tripod will be necessary.

:Niranjan.

 

[Chan Tran]

I interpret this as "Expose To The Right" resp. "Expose To The Left", both terms which are used in the context of digital photography, where the exposure is set to bunch the histogram to the right resp. left. Is this what you mean?

Having said that, ETTR risks clipping highlights while ETTL risks clipping shadows. Proponents of either will argue that you choose exposure to limit clipping to the bare minimum, but the tradeoff/compromise leans in opposite directions.

The general rule of thumb is that in digital, like when shooting slides, clipped highlights are unrecoverable, while deep shadows nearly always contain some detail. In this sense, ETTR is less risky than ETTL. However, it care is taken while applying ETTL that no (relevant) highlights are clipped, the net result is virtually the same in terms of what you can do with the recorded image in post processing and printing.

So the conclusion has been since about the 19th century and the invention of photography: decide which detail is important and try not to lose it. Whether you use ETTL, ETTR, Zone System or something Beyond that - really, whatever. The net result isn't that different in the end; differences in s/n ratio between ETTL and ETTR are in practice often not very relevant.




So there - don't blow out the sky. Doesn't matter how you call it. Just take a meter reading and ensure it doesn't clip any channel into saturation. Use the histogram on your digital camera to verify and reshoot if necessary. Err to the side of underexposure on digital and slides, and to the side of overexposure when shooting negative film. That's pretty much all there is to it.

I think it's the other way around. ETTR means giving the shot as much exposure as possible without burning out the highlight and let the shadow falls where it may. So if you don't want to lose highlight then use ETTR. ETTL mainly for negative film that you watch the shadow and make sure you have sufficient exposure to the shadow so you have good shadow details and don't care where the highlight be.

 

[Nikon 2]

What’s a histogram…

 

[koraks]

I think it's the other way around.

You're right; I swapped the terms in the 3rd paragraph. I've corrected it in the post above.

. So if you don't want to lose highlight then use ETTR.

No, that's the other way around. The right-side of the histogram is where the highlights are. If you ETTR, you bring the image data right up to that edge of the histogram and risk clipping them.

ETTL mainly for negative

Other way around.

From here: https://digital-photography-school.com/exposing-to-the-right/

What’s a histogram…

Histogram

For those who think it's easier to annoy you than to Google 'Histogram' themselves.

letmegooglethat.com

In all seriousness though - a histogram is essentially a pareto diagram ('bar chart') that displays the degree to which each luminosity value (or bracket of values) is present in an image. The usual presentation is dark tones to the left and bright tones to the right. Hence, a histogram that shows a pronounced 'hill' on the right-side of the plot would belong to an image that's overall relatively bright in appearance.

 

[Nikon 2]

You're right; I swapped the terms in the 3rd paragraph. I've corrected it in the post above.



No, that's the other way around. The right-side of the histogram is where the highlights are. If you ETTR, you bring the image data right up to that edge of the histogram and risk clipping them.


Other way around.
View attachment 365467
From here: https://digital-photography-school.com/exposing-to-the-right/

Histogram

For those who think it's easier to annoy you than to Google 'Histogram' themselves.

letmegooglethat.com

In all seriousness though - a histogram is essentially a pareto diagram ('bar chart') that displays the degree to which each luminosity value (or bracket of values) is present in an image. The usual presentation is dark tones to the left and bright tones to the right. Hence, a histogram that shows a pronounced 'hill' on the right-side of the plot would belong to an image that's overall relatively bright in appearance.

You do know the Leica MD 262 doesn’t have a screen…

 

[koraks]

You do know the Leica MD 262 doesn’t have a screen…

Nope, didn't realize that. So the whole ETTR/ETTL thing is pretty much a moot point when using that particular camera. Which isn't too worrisome, since as I pointed out before, it's fairly close to splitting hairs to begin with.

 

[Nikon 2]

Nope, didn't realize that. So the whole ETTR/ETTL thing is pretty much a moot point when using that particular camera. Which isn't too worrisome, since as I pointed out before, it's fairly close to splitting hairs to begin with.

I’ve been using ETTR when shooting morning scenes as the sun is starting to show to help with the shaded area…

 

[Nikon 2]

I tend to set the EV ( exposure compensation) @ + 2…

 

[koraks]

I tend to set the EV ( exposure compensation) @ + 2

In what metering mode and what do you meter on?

 

[mshchem]

Oh Boy


Buy an incident light meter

 

[Nikon 2]

In what metering mode and what do you meter on?

I use manual mode with the red arrows pointing to turn the aperture right or left…!

 

[Nikon 2]

It’s a film digital camera…

 

[Nikon 2]

Oh Boy


Buy an incident light meter

I like it simple, simplicity…

 

[grain elevator]

I like it simple, simplicity…

Then stay away from concepts like ETTR and trying to use them before understanding them! This is impossible without a display, this is another dead end.

 

[Nikon 2]

Then stay away from concepts like ETTR and trying to use them before understanding them! This is impossible without a display, this is another dead end.

Why does Leica have that function on the MD262…

 

[grain elevator]

Why does Leica have that function on the MD262…

What function? An ETTR exposure mode?

 

[Nikon 2]

What function? An ETTR exposure mode?

Yes, press the button down and turn the wheel to use it…

 

[Nikon 2]

Yes, press the button down and turn the wheel to use it…

The small silver button and the black wheel…!

 

[sojournermike]

Ettr would be my view - the point being that you only allow the bits you want to blow out. That might require negative exposure compensation and still be a ettr exposure.

Usually, the jpeg histogram the camera shows has some margin- due to the contrast curves and stronger green response than red and blue. There are all sorts of approaches to try and make the histograms match a raw histogram, but they do make the image look ugly and hard to read as well as, perhaps, being necessary with today’s sensors and their high dynamic range.

Ettl pushes shadows down into the noise floor, so seems a waste of potential. Theoretically, you will get increased posterisation too, although whether this will be visible is a moot point.

All assuming shooting raw.

 

[grain elevator]

The small silver button and the black wheel…!

Exposure compensation? That is necessary to do ettr in auto exposure mode, but without a histogram you don't know what exactly is happening, so you can't ettr. Just stick to conventional use of exposure compensation? It's described in every camera manual.

 

[Nikon 2]

Ettr would be my view - the point being that you only allow the bits you want to blow out. That might require negative exposure compensation and still be a ettr exposure.

Usually, the jpeg histogram the camera shows has some margin- due to the contrast curves and stronger green response than red and blue. There are all sorts of approaches to try and make the histograms match a raw histogram, but they do make the image look ugly and hard to read as well as, perhaps, being necessary with today’s sensors and their high dynamic range.

Ettl pushes shadows down into the noise floor, so seems a waste of potential. Theoretically, you will get increased posterisation too, although whether this will be visible is a moot point.

All assuming shooting raw.

The Leica only shoots RAW…

 

[koraks]

I use manual mode

Which metering mode? I.e. spot or integral/evaluative? This makes a huge difference in terms of your +2 overexposure being a sensible approach or not.
If you work in sport/partial metering mode and you always meter something that's pretty light (i.e. bright sand, a stretch of clear sky) then your +2 compensation may make sense. If you're working in evaluative/integral metering mode and are just pointing the camera in essentially a random direction, then the 'default' +2 you're dialing in is pretty random and reckless.

Read up on metering for starters, then make things complicated if you understand the basics and still feel the need to make it more difficult than it needs to be.

In your place, I would have opted for a camera with a program automatic exposure mode and use that.