Ethics and Definition of "Short Dated" Film

[Noble]

Thank you for all the replies. This was only my second thread and judging from the results there does seem to be some controversy surrounding "short dated" film. At least I feel justified in starting this thread.

I really do appreciate the enthusiasm in addressing my query. I can't respond to all the replies but I will address a few general points that seemed to come up multiple times.

First let me clarify my position as far as the film I have already received. It is slow/medium speed B&W film and it was one five roll pro pack which I will freeze. I will most likely use most of it within five months and freezing it will ensure it is fresh even beyond the five months. The only reason I started this thread is because it was the first time in my life anyone sent me film five months from expiration without indicating it was "short dated" and discounting it prior to sale. That's why I asked about whether this was an issue and about ethics.

The reason I started the thread is in life I find often when you have an issue with a person, company, etc there is usually a warning sign you ignored. While receiving a pro pack of Tmax 100 five months from expiration is far from a disaster I don't know if it portends bad things from that retailer. That is what prompted my query. I didn't know if this was a warning sign of potentially more significant bad customer service or just my own neurosis.

The book store at my college is selling bulk rolls of HP5+ that expired in March 2013, I started buying it in Feb, when the price dropped to $25 a roll, bought a roll a week and its all in the freezer. I have several hundred feet and I doubt there will be any change. I also bought 30 rolls of Provia from a local place that was due to expire in 3 days for $1.50 for a 36exp roll, its also in the freezer. Personally I like short dated film. Just keep it in the freezer and it will be fine. Especially for those of us who are still trying to be better at taking pictures...

While we are all happy for the deal you found for yourself it unfortunately has nothing to do with my situation or this thread. Would you so enthusiastically load up on that film if you received it through the mail and close to full price with no prior warning of it being short dated? I am not an idiot. If someone offered me Provia 3 days from expiration for $1.50 I would not start a thread complaining. I would start a thread telling everyone else how to get in on the deal... after I had bought up all the short dated Provia I wanted. There is a huge difference between having full disclosure prior to the sale and no disclosure. There is also a huge difference between paying $7.99 for Provia and $1.50. Plus $7.99 is the B&H price. I'm sure local it is even more regular price. Seriously guys I'm not brain dead.

As far as the "couple of months" comment. I am not sure what that was referring to. For the record I bought some high quality 100 ISO B&W film a couple of months ago and it had an expiration date in mid/late 2015. I buy some film now and it is expiring in November of this year. That ain't "a couple of months." Again folks give me and some of the other posters some credit. Something that was abnormal in my experience occurred and I am just asking about it. This is the first time I used this supplier and it is no problem to stop using them. I just never really thought about the term short dated and I was wondering if more experienced people had a precise definition.

Again thank you to everyone who responded regardless of what your definition of "short dated" is. The thread has been informative.

 

[cmacd123]

I think this is symptomatic of the changes in film use.

when I first started using a 35mm camera, I would gladly try all the local camera stores and try to get shout/outdated film. Sticktly for the cost savings as I was a student on a modest allowance. In fact my most local store had some Ansco Versapan that was a couple of months outdated and the guy said I could have it at 25 cents a roll, if I took it all. I agreed but it took me several weeks to have enough money to pick it all up. The guy was kind enough to keep it under the counter for me. The deal was even better in that the Ansco Cassettes were re-loadable and plain re-loadeble cassettes were at least 25 cents each in those days.

I then fould freestyle in the back pages of Popular Photography. In those days they had a tight ad filled with cheep film, and fine print that said "all Items not marked <fresh> are outdated but fully guaranteed" I took the "Since 1946" to mean that they had started selling war surplus film. Freestyle gradually moved to there current policy on mostly selling private label products.

so as someone who has bought more short dated film than most folks I would expect that 3 months is definitely time to flag an item as short dated.

 

[BrianShaw]

I buy some film now and it is expiring in November of this year. That ain't "a couple of months." Again folks give me and some of the other posters some credit.

Ummm... that is 3.5 months, give or take a few days.

 

[Noble]

Ummm... that is 3.5 months, give or take a few days.

Brian if I bought a roll off 100 ISO film a couple of months ago and it was stamped with an expiration date in mid/late 2015 and I bought another roll of 100 ISO film from a different vender last week and that roll is expiring in November of this year the difference is not "a couple of months." My original post was terse and too the point because it was relying on people using common sense and giving me the benefit of the doubt. The second post was long and detailed to knock down all the strawmen and refocus the thread. I don't know what more to do.

If it makes you happy to think I bought two rolls of film that had expiration dates two months apart and had a mental break down go ahead. But it has nothing to do with reality or this thread.

 

[Ian Grant]

Films now have much shorter expiry dates than 20 or 30 years ago, so does food and many other items, it's part of ISO 9002 compliance. So expiry dates are now quite short a few years less then when I took up photography but the films still behave perfectly for years past the modern expiry dates.

I've made some great images on short dated HP5 bought from the US and marked short dated on the box well after the expiry date (4 or 5 years), in fact I still use some innthe UK and the results are no different to newer HP5 film I've used in Turkey.

Ian

 

[removed account4]

hi noble

i always use expired tmx and have never noticed any change in sensitivity &c, even expired in 2003/2004 ( and exposed recently ).
enjoy your film, even if it sell by date is sooner than you had hoped.

maybe 10 years ago i was pricing tmy ( 400 ) 4x5 film locally in case i was in a crunch ( as you do )
and the local boutique photo shop that had an agfa sign ( but no one there even know who agfa was )
the shop that was a toyo dealer ( as told to me by MAC / toyo ) but the store manager didn't even know what toyo was ..

they had a box of film that was expired 7 years before ( 2006 ). the price on the 100 sheet box was $100 .
when i asked to see the manager to see if i could get a price break seeing it was well-expired ( i don't mind shooting expired film and still do it often )
the fellow wiped the thick dust off the box, looked at the exp date, looked at me and said " nope, its $100 "
the same film, fresh i purchased for 65$ ( including shipping from b+h) the next day ...

i guess there is short date, and there is well done

- john

 

[BrianShaw]

Noble. I fail to understand the anger in your writing.

I think you need to take a more current and reasoned approach. Or, shop in person if you need "long dated" film. Had you receieved outdated film I'd really feel your pain.

 

[Noble]

Films now have much shorter expiry dates than 20 or 30 years ago, so does food and many other items, it's part of ISO 9002 compliance. So expiry dates are now quite short a few years less then when I took up photography but the films still behave perfectly for years past the modern expiry dates.

I've made some great images on short dated HP5 bought from the US and marked short dated on the box well after the expiry date (4 or 5 years), in fact I still use some innthe UK and the results are no different to newer HP5 film I've used in Turkey.

Ian

I would be careful with those food expiry dates. If you are talking about things like raw chicken don't assume that expiry date is a "soft" number. There have been plenty of outbreaks of food borne illness to warrant extreme caution in regards to hygiene and disposing of certain past date food items.

When you purchased your "short dated" film did they tell you it was short dated prior to purchase and did they discount the price? I think I wasn't clear. I use "short dated" film. But when I buy it it is disclosed prior to purchase and significantly discounted. I was asking about the definition of "short dated" and the ethics of not disclosing short dated film and selling it for full price. If someone doesn't disclose what you consider short dated and doesn't discount the price significantly to you think that is a problem or would you not even notice or care?

 

[Noble]

they had a box of film that was expired 7 years before ( 2006 ). the price on the 100 sheet box was $100 .
when i asked to see the manager to see if i could get a price break seeing it was well-expired ( i don't mind shooting expired film and still do it often )
the fellow wiped the thick dust off the box, looked at the exp date, looked at me and said " nope, its $100 "
the same film, fresh i purchased for 65$ ( including shipping from b+h) the next day ...

i guess there is short date, and there is well done

- john

Lol. Yeah I wish everything in life was that clean cut. I never really paid much attention to expiration dates. When I ordered film that didn't mention the expiration date at time of sale I have no recollection of getting any that didn't have at least a year till expiration. And when I got short dated stuff it was indicated before sale and deeply discounted. This is the first time I've encountered this gray area (no pun intended).

That really is astonishing that someone would take a hard line on film from 2006! I've bought new old stock equipment that I haggled over. And I mean like 30 seconds of haggling on the phone. Digging in your heels over 2006 film?! That store owner is crazy.

 

[Noble]

Noble. I fail to understand the anger in your writing.

I think you need to take a more current and reasoned approach. Or, shop in person if you need "long dated" film. Had you receieved outdated film I'd really feel your pain.

No problem. I already said the film is in the freezer and is going to get used. I haven't returned anything, called the store, or written a stern letter to the BBB. I just started this thread asking people's opinions. This is uncharted water for me and I'm just trying to find out what people's experiences are in this regard. If people have not been in this specific situation that's fine. Just say you don't know but please don't characterize this as me saying I got two rolls of film that are expiring two months apart and love one and hate the other. I am a rational human being.

 

[photopriscilla]

You have raised an interesting point! I have my film in my fridge but I have never thougth about what temperature to keep my fridge at. Hmmm....is this a real concern? Does anyone know?

Priscilla

Personally, I'm more concerned about how it's been stored than what the date says.
My few local stores around that still sell film all have them in a fridge, some have all their stock in that fridge from the date that it come in, some have a fridge or freezer out the back.
I was in Singapore last week, where the average temp is 24-31C (75-88F) year-round, and the coldest ever on record is 19.4C. I ran out of 100B+W film and went to find some. A few shops around Peninsula Plaza had some, mostly only Slide films and one had Neopan400. They were all just sitting on a shelf. Eventually I found some Delta100Pro, also sitting on a shelf (they did have a fridge there, but it was dedicated to 100' rolls and 4x5").

Frankly, I'd rather trust my local shops, where I know it's been sitting in a fridge all its life (besides a bit of transport), I'd have no qualms about buying it near- or even over-date from them.
Those shops in Singapore, however, the date may be a few months or even a year in the future, but I'd be more concerned about buying from them (especially the Silde films).

 

[Dr Croubie]

You have raised an interesting point! I have my film in my fridge but I have never thougth about what temperature to keep my fridge at. Hmmm....is this a real concern? Does anyone know?

Priscilla

As far as I know, film decay is generally proportional to temperature, ie the colder the better. Any fridge sitting at 4C should be fine. Most of my film is in the freezer at home, actually, the only stuff in the fridge are used rolls awating dev, half-used rolls, and bulk-loaded rolls. And Polaroids, do not freeze Polaroids.
But if a shop keeps their rolls in a fridge, I'm fine with buying them up to expiry (and I'll take any discounts they want to give, but it won't stop me buying them).

Every film's different, of course, it's the colour that fares worse with colour shifts (if you're one of those "colour is critical" people then you have to be careful about expiry dates more). I just chuck old films in my 'lomo' pile, mostly 135 negs just sit on my shelf near the heater, specifically to bork their colours.
Silde films I only ever buy new and throw in the freezer straight away, because I shoot 'keeper' landscapes mostly on Velvia.
B+W films might just add a bit of fog and lose EI (neither of which I mind so much), so out-dated films just go in the freezer too, haven't had a problem yet with too much fog ruining anything.

 

[markbarendt]

Films now have much shorter expiry dates than 20 or 30 years ago, so does food and many other items, it's part of ISO 9002 compliance. So expiry dates are now quite short a few years less then when I took up photography but the films still behave perfectly for years past the modern expiry dates.

I've made some great images on short dated HP5 bought from the US and marked short dated on the box well after the expiry date (4 or 5 years), in fact I still use some innthe UK and the results are no different to newer HP5 film I've used in Turkey.

Ian

My experience is similar.

I'm working through some Tri-X 400 in 120 dated 2002 that as far as I can tell has no loss of speed or usability.

About a year ago shot some panatomic that was probably 3 decades old that turned out gorgeous.

 

[brianmquinn]

Films do not expire on a specific date. They age depending on the conditions they experience. They are like people. People don’t die right when they reach their life expectancy and neither do films.
However if you lock a person, or a film, in a hot car in mid summer neither may survive a day.

PS I also have DEVELOPED 30 YEAR OLD Panatomic that was EXPOSED 30 YEARS AGO and it printed fine. The film had a little fog but you could not see it in the prints.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

You have raised an interesting point! I have my film in my fridge but I have never thougth about what temperature to keep my fridge at. Hmmm....is this a real concern? Does anyone know?

Priscilla

I believe Agfa stored their uncut rolls at -10C. For shorter storage any refrigerator set to a temperature for proper food storage 0C to 4C should be OK.

 

[Pioneer]

I buy TMX100 in bulk all the time and lately a lot of the rolls I have received are dated 11/2013. These have been coming from Adorama. Since I know that TMX stores very well I don't even worry about it. I have successfully loaded and shot bulk rolls that were dated June 1994 that I was given a couple of years ago.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Around 0° to 4°C for short-term ready-to-use storage.
–10°C to –20°C for long-term (years+) storage. However, this will increase the risk of embrittlement of the film. It will need at least 24 hours at room temperature before use.
Frost-free fridges are best otherwise moisture will ice rolls up internally.

I have 6 rolls of Astia 135/36 deep-frozen in August 2005.

 

[Noble]

I buy TMX100 in bulk all the time and lately a lot of the rolls I have received are dated 11/2013. These have been coming from Adorama. Since I know that TMX stores very well I don't even worry about it. I have successfully loaded and shot bulk rolls that were dated June 1994 that I was given a couple of years ago.

Thank you. That is a very interesting and useful data point. I've purchased film from Adorama both through mail order and in person while in NYC and I've found them in my experience to be honest brokers at least in regards to film. So it would appear whatever is going on it is not isolated to the supplier I ordered from.

 

[Dave Krueger]

I just returned a bulk roll of TMax 100 to B&H because its expiration date was November, just two months past the expiration date of the same film purchased from them back in 2011. I don't think there's any question about it being short dated and I think it should have been advertised as such by any company that cares about its reputation. I assumed this case was an accident because I believe B&H does care about their reputation, but I will still hesitate to buy film from them again in the future.

Once I load a 100 foot spool into a film loader, I do not keep it in the fridge because I don't want to repeatedly subject it to condensation every time I take it out to load a cassette.

How long you can make it last by keeping it cold seems to be completely beside the point. Film that expires within a few months is not fresh and shouldn't be passed off as fresh. No one I have ever done business with has sold me film that expires that soon without telling me so before the sale.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Chances are, the film is fine. If you're not happy, return it and teach them a lesson for not telling you the whole story about the film. If you complain, you might get some sort of credit. Most retailer want return business.

 

[Terry Christian]

Fewer customers are buying film, so I personally wouldn't be concerned about a shorter date than usual, unless it became a regular occurrence.

 

[Noble]

I bought this TMax 100 with the 11/2013 date from Adorama back in April and May.

They were selling it for $2.99 per 36 exposure roll.

The expiration date was clearly noted in the description.

That's the way it should be done.

Fewer customers are buying film, so I personally wouldn't be concerned about a shorter date than usual, unless it became a regular occurrence.

My question was posed in the context of my prior experience. Like I said a couple of months ago I was getting 2015 film and then all of a sudden these guys send me Nov 2013 stuff. Whether or not people are using less or more film you would think the inventory system still works on FIFO.

I just returned a bulk roll of TMax 100 to B&H because its expiration date was November, just two months past the expiration date of the same film purchased from them back in 2011. I don't think there's any question about it being short dated and I think it should have been advertised as such by any company that cares about its reputation. I assumed this case was an accident because I believe B&H does care about their reputation, but I will still hesitate to buy film from them again in the future.

B&H too?! Well that is astonishing. And that is in 35mm. Mine was 120. Where is this November 2013 stuff coming from? I've been buying 2015 stuff for months and now this?! Something is odd.

That is way out of order on bulk rolls. I know some people didn't want to answer my two direct questions in the OP and just sweep this under the rug but your situation was exactly what I was thinking of. Whatever a businesses wants to do is their business but I was wondering about an aberration from what I understood to the norm. Most people spoke about situations where the information was disclosed and the price reduced. I have no problem with that because you can plan. But as in your situation if they don't disclose the information prior to sale you really can't plan. This was not started as an anti-short dated film thread. I didn't think I would have to swat that strawman down. This thread was about planning, reasonable exceptions, and how to evaluate a supplier. Sloppiness in areas you can tolerate and compensate for does not bode well for quality of service in areas you can't tolerate and compensate for. But really if this is going on at B&H who can you trust?

 

[brianmquinn]

Look at this short date film, same date, Nov 2013.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/11536590-Kodak-Tri-X-400-ISO-120-Size-TX-5-pack-Short-Date-Special

 

[BrianShaw]

That's the way it should be done.

Agreed. That is how is should be, in an ideal world. If knowing hte date of the film being bought is important then these are the type of suppliers to consider first! (Incidentally, I was the victim of bait-and-switch with Adorama on a film buy last year, so...)

My opinion, as expressed earlier, is very different than is yours about what short-dated is and what compensation should be offered. In general, I welcome any discount offered for "short-dated film" but don't expect it and don't feel entitled to such consideration. If offered, I gladly accept but only expect a discount on out-dated film.

p.s. I've been a film buyer since about 1980... and for about 20 of those years a BULK film buyer. A discount on one pro-pack is chump change in my experience.

 

[Pioneer]

Look at this short date film, same date, Nov 2013.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/11536590-Kodak-Tri-X-400-ISO-120-Size-TX-5-pack-Short-Date-Special

Thanks for the link. I just picked up a bunch of this. The price is great and this stuff lasts halfway to forever.

As for announcing that a film is short dated, I suspect that has as much to do with a given store's policy as anything. You may want to contact BH Photo and ask them what their particular policy may be regarding selling film.

I would also agree that in some cases it probably is an unavoidable symptom of a general slow down in film purchasing, particularly related to medium format and bulk films. Large format may already have suffered through these problems a few years back.

Of course, there could be a very simple reason. Perhaps someone at Kodak found a whole bunch of stuff in the back of the warehouse that was expiring in November 2013 and rushed it out the door before it actually expired.