Model what? Alleged film speed points? Simulating actual curves mathematically using calculus (making something easily seen in a simple graph hell to interpret instead)? Or some kind of downloadable software which plots those curves visually for you when you enter your step wedge density readings? (doable and realistic). No need for you to cook up your own equations. But if you do want to go that route, recognize that density units and their plotting is done logarithmic. There's not a lot to it if you have an appropriate densitometer to begin with. But for film you need a B&W transmission densitometer; for prints a B&W reflection densitometer, or else a unit combining both functions. Interpreting the results is something else.
Hey Ian,
I’ve found no satisfactory polynomial to match, nor does a power series expansion work well to create a mathematical equation. Even then, I don’t think the coefficients would tie to any real world characteristics. Fundamentally, measured densities are a statistical sample and I think from a pure mathematical perspective prevents a simple solution. This does not preclude mathematically describing the photo-electro-chemical reaction (quantum mechanics), but at a macro scale statistical distributions drive the shape of the curve.
The best I’ve done is interpolation on a smooth curve fit of measured data points to establish the important points for sensitometry analysis and characterization of the emulsion. I did this in excel.
I'd prefer to have the whole curve as a single equation.
There are plenty of mathematical interpretations of the H&D curves in the literature. Where did you look to not find any?It just seems strange to me that after 120+ years of research, there wouldn't be a mathematical model of these curves.
Apart from smoothing functions to make a smooth curve between your data points, there are families of curves (logistic, quadratic, etc) that can be made to conform as closely as possible to your data by tweaking their parameters using regression techniques. Forgive me if I’m teaching you to suck eggs. I suspect what you may really be asking is which family of curves (=model) is theoretically justified, so that the parameters might actually represent real features of the development process, rather than being mere tweaking factors?
Sorry, I was typing as your later post came up. I think you might get a good fit with a logistic curve.
You won't be able to get the "whole curve" with a conventional sensitometer. You can't increase it's output beyond it's maximum, which, with a 21 step scale, will be somewhere short of the shoulder.
There are plenty of mathematical interpretations of the H&D curves in the literature. Where did you look to not find any?
Yes, but what would be the interpretation of the equation parameters? Unfortunately Excel won't fit a logistic, but surely that would make more sense given the way the process works? I am of course lacking any expertise in sensitometry.You can fit your H&D curve to a polynomial in Microsoft Excel using "Trendline" and "Show equation on chart"
Everyone should do the Kodak Sensitometry Workbook PDF, it is free on the internet.Yes, but what would be the interpretation of the equation parameters? Unfortunately Excel won't fit a logistic, but surely that would make more sense given the way the process works? I am of course lacking any expertise in sensitometry.
For a 1st order fit you can use a sigmoid curve - the integral of a Gaussian distribution.
To go a bit further use one sigmoid to model the toe to midsection and another to model the midsection to shoulder - shoulders and toes are not mirror images of each other.. Sometimes adding a straight bit in the middle can help.
Sigmoids work best on very simple single emulsion papers. VC papers can get a bit messier and you can end up with four to six sigmoids - one for each emulsion.
A problem with sigmoids is that they are mathematically intractable. Leading most folks to be happier with polynomial splines.
Sigmoids for film aren't that good a representation: as films are never developed to completion (with the exception of having grabbed the Dektol instead of the D-76 by mistake) there is almost never a shoulder. The best fit I have found is the outline of a humpback whale.
As sigmoids, and Gaussian distributions, pop up everywhere in nature there is a pop culture applying them to all sorts of idiotic holistic crystal navel gazing.
Google "sigmoid curve" for more.
Everyone should do the Kodak Sensitometry Workbook PDF, it is free on the internet.
The two most common math functions for the H&D curve are contrast and speed.
For speed I do W-Speed and ASA (ISO) speed with a spreadsheet which calculates the data. Also popular is Delta-x speed but I found it harder to program that one.
I don't shoot slide film any more, but there is a much information on exposing slide film out there too (where the shoulder is used for speed determiniation. In that case the sensitometer exposes a complete shoulder, and does not fully outline the darker parts of the curve.[QUOTE="ic-racer, post: 2513957, member: 18971]
The two most common math functions for the H&D curve are contrast and speed.
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Presumably where a shoulder is apparent there must be another parameter that represents something that gets used up - the finite ‘population’ of silver grains available to be exposed and developed?
Everyone should do the Kodak Sensitometry Workbook PDF, it is free on the internet.
I have worked on a computational method that seems to often give a reasonable curve shape for the toe region of a negative film and possibly part of the mid-range region as well. It's based on what I think is a semi-realistic physical model. It is amenable to short toe and long toe films. It's a little too involved to explain in a short post.I would like to use software to model film/paper curves.
Does anyone know of a reference to math equations that may help with this?
Thanks in advance
A quick little history.I've read this. It's a great primer but doesn't provide the depth of information that I'm looking for.
You've shown a couple of interesting charts in your posts. Could you give references for these please? Or other references in the literature?
I don't have access to academic databases or company libraries, so am restricted to what I can find on the internet, historical sources and published books. I'm happy to buy books, but given the prices of technical literature I want to know that they have the right information in them beforehand.
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