Epson P400 vs P600: Curious re: Your experience with either?

[JWMster]

Looking for a 2nd printer to dedicate to B&W-only printing. Narrowed to either the Epson P400 or P600, many of the features are very close EXCEPT 7 vs. 8 ink cartridges, weight, and some possible other details. Reading along here, there's suggestion of more differences.

I'm particularly focused on reliable paper handling with Art Papers which can often run a tad thicker than others. Also am focused on maintenance, keeping the sediment from the ink nozzles, etc. These printers have been around a while now. But the newer P400 in particular seems under the radar screen as somewhat newer and aimed ostensibly at the prosumer rather than heavier use envisioned for the P600.

Many of us print episodically, and when we do, can spend a lot of time with it running off proofs. Wonder especially if the P400's smaller ink cartridges (14-ml vs. 26-ml) ever end up disrupting your work.

 

[JWMster]

Okay... thanks for the input. Went ahead and bought the heftier version with the larger ink cartridges... the P600. Here's to hoping it works. Will let you know.

BTW, I guess anything filed under digital doesn't get looked at? This started under hybrid... 'cause that's what I shoot (film negatives to digital prints). How'd that happen?

 

[williaty]

It is true that most things digital or hybrid are shunned here but, come on, you waited less than 12 hours, almost all of which was comprised of a normal work day. That's not nearly enough time to expect a response.

 

[nmp]

I went through a similar dilemma last year. I ended up with the P400, but I am not sure I did the right thing - at least one thing that I wanted to use it for, namely making digital negatives, it is not quite adequate. The ink set is different than the one in P600. The blacks in the P600 are supposed to much better, giving a higher Dmax than what is achievable in P400. And with a couple of additional gray inks, it should do a better job for B&W as you are wanting to do. On the other hand, the P400 has a couple of different vivid inks like red and orange that allow for a better gamut in those regions - not too important for B&W work, but for color glossy prints, that might be advantageous.

The P400 does have small cartridges so it helps to keep at least one set handy. The printer can continue printing right till the end and you can change in the middle of the print without missing a beat. Also, there is no switching between gloss and matte (which was my top requirement) in P400 whereas P600 there is. Also the P400 has a gloss optimizer that is supposed to make glossy prints avoid reflective anomalies. Size is small and compact. So far I have had no problems feeding the standard art papers using the top feed. Much thicker cardboard thickness materials can be fed from the front. I left it unplugged for about 3 months once so far and it came back on without any clogging issues. So that was good. Another one of my requirement.

:Niranjan.

 

[JWMster]

williaty: Fair enough and thanks for getting angry enough to respond. Passion is good. But if you look at the digital posts here, zero zip nada compared to the analog where I typically hang out and posts typically generate traffic in an hour or so. I wrote simply 'cause the quest was over, no need to bother folks. Pretending otherwise wastes folks' time. My complaint has more to do with how the list asks a question about what the content is here, and then sent it off to post in an entirely different place than where I wrote it. That seems odd to me... indeed I just don't understand it. Can't reproduce it 'cause I didn't take notes, but it was weird.

nmp: THanks! I think both of these have a lot of the same specs. WHat I couldn't find with the P400 was a lot of help, reviews, etc. P600 seems to have more 'cause it came out first. I've found my P800 very robust and infrequent use tolerant. That said,, the machine is a LOT happier the more frequent you use it. After a long lull, a cleaning and test pattern came out weak. After a weekend's heavy printing, the same was strong and clear.

 

[nmp]

williaty: Fair enough and thanks for getting angry enough to respond. Passion is good. But if you look at the digital posts here, zero zip nada compared to the analog where I typically hang out and posts typically generate traffic in an hour or so. I wrote simply 'cause the quest was over, no need to bother folks. Pretending otherwise wastes folks' time. My complaint has more to do with how the list asks a question about what the content is here, and then sent it off to post in an entirely different place than where I wrote it. That seems odd to me... indeed I just don't understand it. Can't reproduce it 'cause I didn't take notes, but it was weird.

nmp: THanks! I think both of these have a lot of the same specs. WHat I couldn't find with the P400 was a lot of help, reviews, etc. P600 seems to have more 'cause it came out first. I've found my P800 very robust and infrequent use tolerant. That said,, the machine is a LOT happier the more frequent you use it. After a long lull, a cleaning and test pattern came out weak. After a weekend's heavy printing, the same was strong and clear.

I try and do a nozzle check at least once a week while I am around. Now that I have bought another printer strictly to do digital negatives (an old HP B9180 I bought in junky condition that I have managed to revive) I expect to print on P400 less frequently. I am hoping it is forgiving in that regard.

The best review for P400 (and P600 for that matter) that I found are on Northlight Images:

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-surecolor-sc-p400-printer-review/

Since you already own the P800, I would say it makes more sense to buy the p600. They share the ink set so if one goes down, you can use the other to get identical prints, provided the size is limited to 13 inches.

Regarding the forum, I suspect a lot of the people left when there was a separation of the analog from the hybrid/digital for greener pastures. Probably not coming back after the latest merger. My other go-to site for printing issues is the Luminous Landscape.

:Niranjan.

 

[JWMster]

Niranjan:: Agreed on Northern Lights reviews as the best I've seen. Suggest a good option for mothballing is to order a 2nd set of cartridges and Piezo flush from Inkjetmall.com. I plan to do this with my color printer (P800). With respect to the P400 vs. P600, despite some of the reviews between these as favoring this or that, dedicating one of these to B&W and using QuadtoneRIP I think puts them on the same plane. Both have the same DPI configuration. At that point, the difference becomes one more ink cartridge for the P600... in fact the same number as the P800, and a slightly bigger cartridge. I like the pricing on the P400 and its supplies better, but didn't know how it handled ink outages in midstream, and imagined running out midstream... which has happened on the P800 and the printer just kept on going with a crummy output as a result. Basically had to throw it out and start again, and since it was a 17-inch wide print, that's a lot of ink. So my experience there led to the "I don't want that to happen" and imagining it with the P400 as more likely. Three weekends ago, it rained here and I spent the whole weekend printing roughly 30 or more prints, and that led me to not want to have to do a refill at the same time.So that's how I came to see the P600 as more suited... even though the differences are EXTREMELY marginal... or at least not obvious from the specs. P600 does add a significant amount of poundage. Better? Dunno. One fellow suggested the P400's heads are actually different and should be easier to maintain by design.

As an educational piece, a "better" review or at least a more seminal review would go through features and discuss what the other choices were in designing the equipment and what you get as a result. I've not actually seen this. Most reviews are actually puff pieces in terms of selling what you can produce. "Hey look at these beautiful prints!" Even fewer discuss paper handling and maintenance. Northern Lights came closest so far.

Good luck and enjoy your P400! Woudln't hurt to have updates from time to time.Thanks for your interest and help!

 

[nmp]

...dedicating one of these to B&W and using QuadtoneRIP I think puts them on the same plane. Both have the same DPI configuration. At that point, the difference becomes one more ink cartridge for the P600.

Are you going to use third party inks for your B&W, like Cone/IJT with QTR? If so, I have heard Epson has put some sort of electronic/software hindrance to using refillable carts for the P series. You might want to check on that. I bought a refurbished 1430 initially to do digital negative as an alternative to P400 (before I found the B9180) that I am thinking for converting to a B&W carbon printer...at some later time, I have not even opened the box yet some 2 months after delivery.

.One fellow suggested the P400's heads are actually different and should be easier to maintain by design.

I think there is something to that. In P400, the carts sit right on top of the heads and they move together while printing. There are no tubes connecting the two, as far as I can see. That might make it less prone to clogs, perhaps. Anecdotal reports on all P-series printers have been that they are far better at clogs and other issues than their predecessors, though.

:Niranjan.

 

[JWMster]

Niranjan:

1) Yes, I've ordered the equip for Piezo. Using their cartridges, resetting is possible so long as you don't update the as-delivered firmware. That's the buzz. We'll see....
2) This is where the engineering of these things gets fuzzy and the solutions used by Epson for one printer or another unclear to the relative rubes like me. Be great if there were a real techie who could analyze and comment on the choices made in a particular design. P600 and P800 have "pressure" to assist with keeping them clean. The P400 has something about the way the heads run for the same purpose. Relative merits of one solution vs. another? Suppose time will tell.

Skip

 

[faberryman]

I think it was Northern Lights that did the review when the P600/P800 when they first came out and recommended the P800 as the more economical to operate, saying the inks were less per ml for the P800 and the savings would quickly pay for the difference in price.

 

[JWMster]

With 3rd party inks, the economics shift somewhat. I worked up a spreadsheet, and between the P400 and P600 it's not that much different even though we're talking 16ml vs. 26ml. Cone's docs show they put 60ml of ink into their after-market cartridges for the P600. Not sure how much goes into the P400 after-market cartridges. But Cone's inks are essentially refills and you get more ink per $, and save. The P800 requires an expansion board for refills that runs $400 (rounded) and is good for 30 refills. That's a lot of ink. The 80ml Epson cartridges have lasted me about 6 months, and I'm draining the 2nd batch now. Amortize the expansion board and it's about $10/$11 per refill... which isn't as bad as it sounds. BUT Epson's downloading firmware to the machines to defeat the expansion board these days. NOT strictly illegal though inconsistent with the Supreme Court ruling, but definitely - if not unethical, certainly aggressively violating the user's rights to use 3rd party inks. Will take another court case to resolve. Anyway, I didn't want that hassle. The savings in using 3rd party is really in using 3rd party color ink sets and that's not currently my goal. There's a group in Chicago that also uses the same expansion board and sells European color ink sets, but I think the Cone folks think their own color is better. From what I read, they're now fighting back investigating a way to roll back the Epson firmware "upgrade". Crazy! but I'll cheer if it works.

 

[nmp]

With 3rd party inks, the economics shift somewhat. I worked up a spreadsheet, and between the P400 and P600 it's not that much different even though we're talking 16ml vs. 26ml. Cone's docs show they put 60ml of ink into their after-market cartridges for the P600. Not sure how much goes into the P400 after-market cartridges. But Cone's inks are essentially refills and you get more ink per $, and save. The P800 requires an expansion board for refills that runs $400 (rounded) and is good for 30 refills. That's a lot of ink. The 80ml Epson cartridges have lasted me about 6 months, and I'm draining the 2nd batch now. Amortize the expansion board and it's about $10/$11 per refill... which isn't as bad as it sounds. BUT Epson's downloading firmware to the machines to defeat the expansion board these days. NOT strictly illegal though inconsistent with the Supreme Court ruling, but definitely - if not unethical, certainly aggressively violating the user's rights to use 3rd party inks. Will take another court case to resolve. Anyway, I didn't want that hassle. The savings in using 3rd party is really in using 3rd party color ink sets and that's not currently my goal. There's a group in Chicago that also uses the same expansion board and sells European color ink sets, but I think the Cone folks think their own color is better. From what I read, they're now fighting back investigating a way to roll back the Epson firmware "upgrade". Crazy! but I'll cheer if it works.

Skip:

Feels very complicated, this piezography business. Probably does not make economic sense for someone like me who prints regularly but sparingly and mostly in letter sizes. It looks like the ink cost come down considerably if you buy their largest bottles. Also, one time costs can be prohibitive if one does not have high throughput. So until now I have never considered not using the OEM inks for color.

For black and white, that might be different as piezogrphy provides an unique solution that is not achievable from the OEM inks. As I said, I intend to convert my yet unopened 1430 to print with carbon inks. I would be very interested in your first hand experience as you get your P600 up working with Cone gray inks. I take it you are not going to use the OEM carts that the printer came with at all so there will be no flushing required. Is that what they recommend or do they prefer you using the Epson carts to initialize the printer first, and then flush, clean and replace with refillable carts and Cone inks. If the former, what if there is something wrong with the printer. Or just keep the finger crossed and go for it.

Good luck and keep us posted. Incidentally, there is a sub-forum called Digital Printers. This type of subjects probably better suited there. Not that you might get better responses.

:Niranjan.

 

[JWMster]

Niranjan:

YES!!! it DOES feel complicated going down the Piezography road... blindly, lonesomely... almost barrenly. Kind of like so many things about photography... but especially printing things, this is the road less travelled and few print their work today. Thus, the assistance in printing seems lighter than it should anyway. Add to this the Piezography stuff, and it gets leaner and leaner. But the folks who do this are out there and so far seem helpful. Look into yahoogroups for the QuadtoneRIP group and DigitalBlackandWhite where both forums discuss this stuff. I've been all over both of those lately, and can say that the Piezography folks (Jon Cone and Walker Blackwell) are helpful. I'm also trying to work out some training with Richard Boutwell (BWMastery) who uses Piezography but makes some of his own software for curves to be able to use mix and match inks more widely.

So despite the angst, I'm confident that like learning to develop film and get the equip to do it well, this road will work out, too. I've ordered Piezography Pro inks 'cause they do ALL the tones and you don't have to pick in advance and order different sets, a full set of cleaning kits, and some Cone papers. Plan to start out as plain vanilla as possible. FWIW, the 1430 is supposed to be great for this - if you can find a good or refurbished one. With that, you'll have no worries about Epson firmware lock-outs. I will.

As to your last note, Piezography folks recommend running the initial Epson cartridges through to initialize the printer... just to be sure it works. So you hit that one on the head. "Make sure the printer works because Piezography needs a printer at the top of its game." So you definitely want to debug the printer with its own OEM cartridges before going on to non-OEM inks.

I actually had posted this initially on the Digital Printers forum and somehow with the questions asked before you could complete the post, I must have answered wrongly, and it ended up here. Next time...