Enlarger recommendations

[MattKing]

I expect that many would prefer a new Devere to a used mid-level Durst, if price wasn't important.

 

[Milpool]

I was excited to see that DeVere is still being sold by the company, rather than some marketplace, but I noticed that few people prefer it over Durst. I reached to Kienzle Phototechnik, and I'll see what they have to offer.

The Durst M601 is the easiest option for me to buy, because there are several ads listed here in Lisbon and a few more in Portugal. No listings for the M605.

I’m not in a rush to purchase, so I may keep looking. I’m not looking for the easiest option, but the best one for the long term.

I don't know to what extent Odyssey Sales "is" DeVere. I think if I were in the market at this point I'd probably end up with a new Kienzle. Top quality from what I've heard (and expensive, but anything new is going to be). I think Kienzle is affiliated with or partners with Heiland on certain things.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I'd think that true commercial Durst 138 5X7 series were once just as common in European pro labs as here in the US. I'd rather use one of those even for med format film than any dedicated 4x5 or 6X7 enlarger; and yes,
I know the difference due to lots of experience with these different options. Finding examples still in good condition at reasonable price might take some patience; but they were so well made to begin with, with long-term maintenance in mind, that they can generally be refurbished in a relatively simple shop. Dozens of them were outright thrown away in this area as the big labs closed down one by one.

 

[Ian Grant]

I was excited to see that DeVere is still being sold by the company, rather than some marketplace, but I noticed that few people prefer it over Durst. I reached to Kienzle Phototechnik, and I'll see what they have to offer.

The Durst M601 is the easiest option for me to buy, because there are several ads listed here in Lisbon and a few more in Portugal. No listings for the M605.

I’m not in a rush to purchase, so I may keep looking. I’m not looking for the easiest option, but the best one for the long term.

I used an M601 before getting an M605 in a job lot of darkroom equipment. If you buy one, try and get one with the CLS66 colour head, and transformer,

Ian

 

[hiroh]

Does anyone have any experience with Kaiser VCP 9005?

 

[koraks]

No, not really, but a friend of mine uses a couple of Kaiser 600x series enlargers. I think he has the older VPM6002. They're comparable, just for 6x6, not for 6x9. He's very fond of them; he uses his with the variable contrast head where you can dial in your desired paper grade. He only does B&W in mostly 6x4.5 and some 35mm. These are robust, no-fuss, no-nonsense enlargers, quite similar to the Durst M605 (6x6) or M805.

 

[Ian Grant]

The Kaiser VCP 9005 is still made, so spares are available, it has the advantage of being able to go to 6x9,or v6x7.

Ian

 

[hiroh]

My Kaiser VCP 9005 arrived today. It looks like new, and I got a Leitz Focotar 50/4.5 lens with it, along with a Kaiser digital timer, film holders with ANR glass, Meopta Easel, and many accessories. I was so excited about the enlarger that I didn’t even pay attention to what was included, so all these extras came as a surprise. It looks really good, but I haven’t printed anything yet.

One question: I noticed that I cannot get a full frame with 120 film and a 50mm lens. Do I need to purchase an 80? That’s what I read, but I just want to double-check.

 

[MattKing]

Do I need to purchase an 80?

Yes - or something close to that. 80 mm for 6x6 or 6x4.5, 90mm for 6x7, 105mm for 6x9 are all the recommended lengths.
Do you have a manual for the enlarger? If so, check to see if there are any other adjustments you need to make to match the light source position to the format.

 

[Ian Grant]

A Durst Neonon 75mm lens will allow slightly greater enlargement than a 80mm. Other 75mm alternative are Minolta El Rokko, Nikkon El Nikkor.

Ian

 

[Lachlan Young]

but I noticed that few people prefer it over Durst.

Probably because most De Vere owners aren't/ weren't amateurs with the need to volubly spread opinions. If you're working all day with them, a De Vere rapidly pays dividends in terms of operator comfort. They're also overall a significant step up from essentially all Dursts (including the 138/184 etc) in terms of precision of build.

Odyssey Sales "is" DeVere.

Direct successor, formed out of the remains of De Vere in the 1990s.

I think Kienzle is affiliated with or partners with Heiland on certain things.

I'm pretty sure they manufacture all the metalwork for Heiland - Kienzle can be (like quite a few German businesses) a bit of a headache to communicate with via email.

 

[Milpool]

Direct successor, formed out of the remains of De Vere in the 1990s.



I'm pretty sure they manufacture all the metalwork for Heiland - Kienzle can be (like quite a few German businesses) a bit of a headache to communicate with via email.

Thanks for this. Regarding Odyssey, are they actually manufacturing new enlargers using DeVere specs, tooling etc.? Or are they refurbishing/recycling old DeVere stuff?

Yes, based on Kienzle’s website I imagine it would be somewhat painful to actually place an order and figure out accessories and such. Regarding the quality of the product though, have you any experience or have you heard good things? I’ve heard they are excellent, precision products but information is scant at best.

 

[hiroh]

Thanks for this. Regarding Odyssey, are they actually manufacturing new enlargers using DeVere specs, tooling etc.? Or are they refurbishing/recycling old DeVere stuff?

Yes, based on Kienzle’s website I imagine it would be somewhat painful to actually place an order and figure out accessories and such. Regarding the quality of the product though, have you any experience or have you heard good things? I’ve heard they are excellent, precision products but information is scant at best.

I actually got in touch with Kienzle via email and asked a bunch of questions, but all I got was the price list attached, so I didn't bother continuing the conversation. But at least, they responded.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Durst excelled Devere in terms of amenities - precision carriers, more advanced colorheads, and so forth. But that whole argument is probably overkill relative to ordinary MF printing demands. Regardless, everything new these days is going to be mainly anodized aluminum, CNC fabrication, etc - the classic era of machined stainless steel components and die-cast fittings is no longer realistic in terms of labor and materials costs.

Keep in mind I'm referring to the commercial division of Durst, which shut down quite awhile back. Same goes for DeVere, which was nowhere near as popular in commercial labs here, and only in monster size for horizontal work. Their legacy fizzled with their digital projection enlarger bellyflop.

 

[Milpool]

Durst excelled Devere in terms of amenities - precision carriers, more advanced colorheads, and so forth. But that whole argument is probably overkill relative to ordinary MF printing demands. Regardless, everything new these days is going to be mainly anodized aluminum, CNC fabrication, etc - the classic era of machined stainless steel components and die-cast fittings is no longer realistic in terms of labor and materials costs.

Keep in mind I'm referring to the commercial division of Durst, which shut down quite awhile back.

It would be cool if we could get new Saltzman enlargers. Talk about machining. Those were some real beasts.

 

[Milpool]

I actually got in touch with Kienzle via email and asked a bunch of questions, but all I got was the price list attached, so I didn't bother continuing the conversation. But at least, they responses.

That’s what I would be afraid of. After-sale support/service could be a nightmare. Maybe if I lived in Germany I’d feel better about it but having to deal with the company from North America would probably add a lot of frustration and money to an already expensive purchase.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I made my own beast enlarger. Haven't used it for awhile. It's due for some maintenance. Meanwhile, my more humble Durst L184 color 8X10 rig is a convenient substitute.

 

[Ian Grant]

Probably because most De Vere owners aren't/ weren't amateurs with the need to volubly spread opinions. If you're working all day with them, a De Vere rapidly pays dividends in terms of operator comfort. They're also overall a significant step up from essentially all Dursts (including the 138/184 etc) in terms of precision of build.

The owner of my local pro lab used to work for Durst UK as an engineer. His job was installing and calibrating roll-head, printers and other Durst UK lab equipment. He used De Vere 504 enlargers, I think taht says a lot.

Durst UK were equipment manufacturers in their own right, Durst bought the British company Pavelle Ltd in 1972, which was founded as the Photo Chemical Co Ltd. by Dr Kurt (Curt) Jacobson, and bought by Pavelle (USA) in 1960. Pavelle's research team developed and Patented the first Subtractive Dichroic filter system for colour heads. Keith Aston's patent was filed in 1965 (& granted) in the UK, US, & Germany.

Pavelle Ltd made a 400E 5x4 colour enlarger with a built-in colour an analyser probe, the 400Ev head was also used by Durst for the 138 enlarger, the analyser was a Durst 400. This co-operation was before Durst bought Pavelle. There are currently 2 400E enlargers for sale.

Ian

 

[MattKing]

To a certain extent, discussing the fine points of the differences between the commercial quality Devere and Durst products is a little bit like discussing the fine points of the differences between the suppliers of heavy duty construction equipment - extremely relevant to those who need to do demanding production work at high quality and in volume, but overkill for most of us users.

 

[eli griggs]

To a certain extent, discussing the fine points of the differences between the commercial quality Devere and Durst products is a little bit like discussing the fine points of the differences between the suppliers of heavy duty construction equipment - extremely relevant to those who need to do demanding production work at high quality and in volume, but overkill for most of us users.

So, are you saying this conversation is not a valid thread for those of us that may not ever use or ever see either manufacture's top quality enlargers or is somehow not worth discussion in this forum?

Like many others, I like hearing about what to me are exotics in the field of photography, never knowing what I might run up against in the Tomorrows of Life, where as, it seems you are discouraging futher posts on this topic?

Cheers

 

[DREW WILEY]

My apologies. But I was a dealer of high end construction equipment, to the point of being directly being involved in the design of some of it, and outright dissecting many models for sake of comparison. I've always been obsessed with quality of build.

I have an old Pavelle color head received free in a "horse trade". It's a useless thing. The true Durst commercial Italian division never made a 4x5 enlarger - 5x7 was the smallest, with the exception of a rare reduced platform version of the L138.

 

[MARTIE]

Both De Vere and Durst are fine machines.

Here's a list of Durst equipment manufacturing dates.
I've always fancied one of their horizontal models myself.

 

[MattKing]

So, are you saying this conversation is not a valid thread for those of us that may not ever use or ever see either manufacture's top quality enlargers or is somehow not worth discussion in this forum?

Like many others, I like hearing about what to me are exotics in the field of photography, never knowing what I might run up against in the Tomorrows of Life, where as, it seems you are discouraging futher posts on this topic?

Cheers

Professional level equipment is an entirely valid and entertaining subject for discussion. As this thread was started by someone who posts "I'm a beginner in the darkroom", that discussion would probably benefit from the caveat that the OP's needs can well be met with excellent, robust and capable equipment that is considerably less "high end" than those professional level machines.
One of the toughest things for relative beginners to learn about this sort of thing is how to gauge the relative importance of things. Friends of mine have a Durst 5x7 enlarger in their darkroom that cost over $38,000.00 around 50 years ago, and when they acquired it ~ 15 years ago, they were relatively close to being beginners. That was probably overkill for their needs, even if it is a wonderfully satisfying piece of kit to use.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Depends. 5X7 Dursts were more like $15,000 US new unless really souped up. I got my first one for $2,000 used, including colorhead, then a second chassis dirt cheap, which took more work to fully refurbish. But heck, I got a fully equipped L184 8X10 unit, excellent condition colorhead n' all (about $24,000 when new) for FREE. I enjoyed restoring fine enlargers; it's a lot more fun than repairing lawnmowers, for instance.

Yeah, my old Chromega D2 4x5 enlarger mainly sat in the corner after that; but it served me quite well for a long time. I'd never call Omega a precision product - it needed shims and jerry-rigged tweaks here n' there - more of a Ford/Chevy thing, not a Ferrari. But I'd heartily recommend one to a beginner.

Cost-wise, it's all relative. All the time I see people walking around with the latest DLSR or mirrorless, equipped with some 4,000 dollar latest n' greatest lens, when all they intend to do is post pictures on the web. Some of them have piles of expensive taking lenses laying around which they almost never use. But when it comes to a darkroom - if they take that route at all - they squirm at the thought of spending more than forty bucks for an enlarging lens.

I forgot the exact link, but somewhere they give a virtual tour of the Durst museum. They've got some monsters in that zoo, including up to a 12X16 inch L-style model if I recall correctly. The highest price L138 model actually had a machined hexagonal chassis, rather than round, using ball bearings on each flat for highly precise vertical adjustment.
There was another Italian brand which made an ultra precise 11X14 model with a pulsed xenon sequential colorhead for sake of enlargement directly onto offset printing plates. One of those sat in the basement of an SF dealer for decades because he wouldn't give up a dime of his top dollar asking price. Eventually, when that business was liquidated, the enlarger went to the dump.

 

[mshchem]

Both De Vere and Durst are fine machines.

Here's a list of Durst equipment manufacturing dates.
I've always fancied one of their horizontal models myself.

This is a pretty amazing list. What complexity.