Enlarger prices ... amazing

[Tom Kershaw]

That's the budget I allowed myself for materials and machining on my entirely custom-made 8x10 additive color enlarger.

Do you have a picture of your custom built additive colour enlarger?

 

[Kyle M.]

Can you imagine the cost to manufacture an enlarger - a completely specialty-market item with a zillion parts and complex assembly, that has to be aligned and so on? I don't think the new prices seem far off for what you're getting. The fact that the market is flooded with used ones doesn't make manufacturing and shipping a new one cost any less.

Sure, a 23C or an MXT may be unchanged for the last 15 years, still using the same tooling and assembly lines, but they're still complex and parts-intensive machines. I really would love to see Beseler's yearly sales figures, just sheer curiosity about the market.

As someone who has worked in manufacturing all my life most of that time as a machinist I wouldn't say an enlarger has many parts at all, say compared to a mechanical SLR? Looking at my Beseler 45 that I got for free there really isn't much to it. As far as alignment and calibration that's all in the lens, there isn't much precision to the enlarger itself.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Additive color involves narrow-band Red, Blue, and Green. Just green and blue would be relative to printing on variable contrast papers, which is a much easier thing to design, since the peak filter wavelength sensitivities don't have to be spot on like they do for clean color printing per se.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Right, what I mean is, do you have special bulbs that emit these narrow bands, or are they just white light bulbs which are then filtered by narrow band filters?

I have never used an additive enlarger so find this a fascinating topic. All my colour printing has been with subtractive colour and magenta / yellow filtration.

 

[Kyle M.]

I agree regarding the number of parts and relative lack of complexity, but good alignment of baseboard, lens stage and negative stage is important (in my opinion at least). To that extent the structural parts have to be well made and well assembled.

This is true you can’t just totally cobble it together. Though I definitely understand why a new enlarger is expensive. I wonder if they are even continuously produced? Or are there just some in a warehouse somewhere and when they sell a pre determined amount they make more?

 

[DREW WILEY]

My units had to be relatively powerful since they were originally designed for large format Ciba printing. They rely on dichroic filters. But there are two ways of doing that. The most obvious is to use very dense narrow-band RGB filters. The problem with that is that they transmit very little light, leading to longer exposures, hence reciprocity and potential heat issues, which in turn causes a spectral shift in the filter themselves, and around you go, chasing your own tail. Near the very end of commercial production, Durst designed a high-ouput additive system like that which ran very hot and was very expensive to maintain. It was never offered to the public, and all those colorheads went to the NSA. I've personally seen the replacement guts.

My own units run cool, and employ a "sandwich system" with two "trimmer" or cutter filters per color channel, which trim off the nm band on each side of the desired spectral sensitivity in all three cases : RGB. The main light source is a bank of halogen bulbs, then all that is bounced around in a mirror box or diffusion chamber, with related feedback circuitry. Don't try designing something like this unless you're willing to become a psychiatrist for a schizophrenic machine. There's quite a bit to it. And don't expect anything ideal from LED's anytime soon; VC heads, yes; true colorheads, no. Stick with subtractive YMC unless you want a challenge.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

The thing is as long as the initial light source is broadband white light, isn’t everything essentially subtractive?

I take additive to mean making adjustments / filtration with RGB controls rather than CMY.

 

[MattKing]

It’s a good question. I bought a new Saunders 4550 seven or eight years ago and as far as I know you can still buy a new one, but I have no idea if they are just old stock or made in small batches or something. Based on info in this thread it appears De Vere 5108 enlargers are still made periodically in small batches. Not sure about Beseler etc.

As I understand it, Both Beseler and LPL (formerly Saunders in the USA) are still being manufactured. LPL's Canadian distributor, KHB still receives regular shipments of newly manufactured product, although COVID 19 has disrupted regularity.
I received (via KHB) a brand new universal carrier for an LPL 7700 as a Christmas present this year from my wife.

 

[CMoore]

Sounds like a merry Christmas.

Yup I bought my Saunders/LPL from KHB. They were very helpful and friendly. Great service.

Were you already using Saunders equipment.?
My Beseler 45 color-heads have been worked on by KHB... (that is the guy in Canada, right.?)
So they work well.....but i am always impressed by how well the Saunders Neg Holders slide so tight into their enlargers. When i see guys on Youtube, that have them, it sort of makes me envious.
They seem like a "Better" machine than my circa 1980 Beselers.

How much was your setup.....in round numbers.?
Thank You

 

[CMoore]

Do you have a picture of your custom built additive colour enlarger?

I hope he had a film crew document it.

My units had to be relatively powerful since they were originally designed for large format Ciba printing. They rely on dichroic filters. But there are two ways of doing that. The most obvious is to use very dense narrow-band RGB filters. The problem with that is that they transmit very little light, leading to longer exposures, hence reciprocity and potential heat issues, which in turn causes a spectral shift in the filter themselves, and around you go, chasing your own tail. Near the very end of commercial production, Durst designed a high-ouput additive system like that which ran very hot and was very expensive to maintain. It was never offered to the public, and all those colorheads went to the NSA. I've personally seen the replacement guts.

My own units run cool, and employ a "sandwich system" with two "trimmer" or cutter filters per color channel, which trim off the nm band on each side of the desired spectral sensitivity in all three cases : RGB. The main light source is a bank of halogen bulbs, then all that is bounced around in a mirror box or diffusion chamber, with related feedback circuitry. Don't try designing something like this unless you're willing to become a psychiatrist for a schizophrenic machine. There's quite a bit to it. And don't expect anything ideal from LED's anytime soon; VC heads, yes; true colorheads, no. Stick with subtractive YMC unless you want a challenge.

As the member above said...... would be great to see any Pics/Video that you have of that.!

 

[btaylor]

I hope he had a film crew document it.


As the member above said...... would be great to see any Pics/Video that you have of that.!

You know that's never going to happen.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Sorry, I don't show any public pics of my digs. Not a good idea in this area. Burglars are not particularly interested in gear weighing hundreds of pounds and bolted in place in multiple directions, but can do a lot of damage rooting around looking for something portable they can heist. Had that happen once. They eventually got caught and convicted, but what a headache! Even the cops crawling all over things and dusting for fingerprints is just about the last thing one needs in a lab containing valuable negatives, etc. I think they caused more damage than even the burglars did. But it was fingerprints that eventually got the culprits caught. That was the best thing that probably ever happened to them. If they'd been free and still on heroin even another six months, both (a husband and wife team) would have probably been dead. Really messed up. Twelve years of "summer camp" hopefully taught them another direction.

 

[MattKing]

My Beseler 45 color-heads have been worked on by KHB... (that is the guy in Canada, right.?)
So they work well.....but i am always impressed by how well the Saunders Neg Holders slide so tight into their enlargers. When i see guys on Youtube, that have them, it sort of makes me envious.
They seem like a "Better" machine than my circa 1980 Beselers.

Yes, Kevin Brown (KHB) is the guy in Canada.
My new to me LPL 7700s are really very nice. It is kind of amazing, given that they came out of a high school darkroom.
The fit and finish and design remind me more of Durst than anything else I am familiar with.
And the interesting workaround that Nanette (ozphoto here on Photrio) discovered which permits use of 6x9 negatives in what is supposed to be a 6x7 enlarger makes it even better.
I would have preferred to keep my Omega D6, but our move necessitated something with a much smaller footprint.
Smaller even than the fully accessorized Beseler 67 series enlarger that I still have in storage, competing there with the second LPL 7700 for space.
I still like the Beseler 67, and would have stayed with it if I could have squeezed it into the working space available.

 

[ic-racer]

Additive and subtractive can be interchangeable in use. For example my additive head has two sets of numbers on the dial. At 100% blue it also shows 0% red. Indeed it is an intensity control for a lamp behind a fixed blue filter. So, it can work as a 'black box' without understanding what is going on, for the case when the lamp is OFF (indicating 100% red) and the other two lamps are on, the resulting light is indeed red.

 

[CMoore]

Yes, Kevin Brown (KHB) is the guy in Canada.
My new to me LPL 7700s are really very nice. It is kind of amazing, given that they came out of a high school darkroom.
The fit and finish and design remind me more of Durst than anything else I am familiar with.
And the interesting workaround that Nanette (ozphoto here on Photrio) discovered which permits use of 6x9 negatives in what is supposed to be a 6x7 enlarger makes it even better.
I would have preferred to keep my Omega D6, but our move necessitated something with a much smaller footprint.
Smaller even than the fully accessorized Beseler 67 series enlarger that I still have in storage, competing there with the second LPL 7700 for space.
I still like the Beseler 67, and would have stayed with it if I could have squeezed it into the working space available.

Yes, that was his name. Did a great job with my Beselers.
What to do, What to do.
Its not like i am the Stevie Ray Vaughan of photography..... but you mention size.
The Beseler 45 has that giant frame and the enlarger sits on the inside dimension of it. As you say, it is a pretty big foot-print.
Plus, the 45 (the head) is very close to the rail that allows for focusing. I frequently fight that when i Dodge/Burn.
Anyway...... thanks for the info.

 

[voceumana]

KHB Photografix sells the LPL products for significantly less than the USA distributor--priced took a big spike when distribution moved from Saunders to Omega. Remember, KHB products are priced in Canadian dollars. I've gotten very good service buying from KHB and shipping into the USA.

 

[CMoore]

Sorry, I don't show any public pics of my digs. Not a good idea in this area. Burglars are not particularly interested in gear weighing hundreds of pounds and bolted in place in multiple directions, but can do a lot of damage rooting around looking for something portable they can heist. Had that happen once. They eventually got caught and convicted, but what a headache! Even the cops crawling all over things and dusting for fingerprints is just about the last thing one needs in a lab containing valuable negatives, etc. I think they caused more damage than even the burglars did. But it was fingerprints that eventually got the culprits caught. That was the best thing that probably ever happened to them. If they'd been free and still on heroin even another six months, both (a husband and wife team) would have probably been dead. Really messed up. Twelve years of "summer camp" hopefully taught them another direction.

Wow, that is a bummer.
Not being cynical, but to be honest, i am surprised the cops put that much effort into it.
At least you did not suffer a huge financial loss.

I helped a friend with his race car (Formula Ford) for 2 years.
His older brother raced and also Prepped/Fabricated for other racers.
His shop got broken into twice.
He had bars installed on the windows, a "Burglar Proof" roll-up door installed and a reinforced entry door also installed.
While we were at Lacuna Seca, the crooks came back, DISABLED The Alarm from outside, and used a gas powered saw to cut an 8'x10' hole in the back of the building and stole EVERYTHING but the hydraulic lift.!
Shop was in an industrial area, the closest neighbor was about 100 feet.
The "neighbor" happened to be at THEIR Shop that Sunday and they never saw or heard a thing.
HUGE Insurance Claim.
The Alarm really saved him with getting a quick settlement.
The Cops sent out a detective, he talked to Ted for about 20 minutes, and that was the end of it.
What can you say.... Professionals.

 

[DREW WILEY]

They're generally after consumer electronics, guns, or cool things like designer tennis shoes. But this couple was so wigged out that they probably didn't even know what there were after, and that's what made them so potentially dangerous. When their house was raided, they had piles of stolen stuff from multiple burglaries they didn't even attempt to sell. Detectives were aware of them all along, but waited until they had ample evidence for a conviction before moving on them. That's generally the case. The pro burglars are a different species. Yes, they use junkies as scouts, but otherwise try to not draw attention to themselves, plan things out, trigger diversionary alarms to keep police busy, and target expensive neighborhoods. This past season they took advantage of downtown protests to clean out an entire car dealership, while cops were tied up elsewhere. "Sideshows" do the same thing. And one year, they triggered a lot of commercial alarms and cleaned out a Ferrari dealership, went joyriding, and then abandoned all the vehicles, some wrecked. Just for an adrenaline rush I guess.

 

[DREW WILEY]

The smallest commercial Durst's were 5x7 L138 series. Anything 4x5 or MF was consumer division made.

 

[CMoore]

By the way you describe the negative carriers sliding in it sounds like you are referring to the medium format enlargers. The carriers do slide in snug, in a similar way to the small Durst enlargers. I’m not all that impressed with the rest of the design/build on the medium format Saunders/LPL I have. It’s a C6700, which I bought new a few years ago for a song. One day I was at the local store here where I normally buy my film/paper and they must have decided to get rid of some darkroom equipment stock they had left over from the old days when they used to sell that stuff. Brand new unopened C6700 for peanuts. So I took it to use for print flashing and some sensitometry stuff. It isn’t properly aligned but it doesn’t matter for what I’m using it for.

The one I bought from KHB is the Saunders 4550XL (LPL 7452). I don’t remember exactly what I paid but I think the chassis with VCCE (black and white) head was somewhere around $5,000 (Canadian) at the time. Hopefully I’m not far off on that. I have the paperwork somewhere but since this was 7 or 8 years ago I’m sure the prices have gone up anyway.

Not really sure which ones i have seen on Youtube, but yeah. The person slides the Neg Holder into the slot and it closed down nice and tight. It seems a better system than my Beseler 45.
Just curious.
I get the feeling i am looking at 4-5-6-7 thousand to change.... just a guess.... will probably just stick with what i have..... who knows.

 

[MattKing]

I’m not all that impressed with the rest of the design/build on the medium format Saunders/LPL I have. It’s a C6700, which I bought new a few years ago for a song.

That is the middle level "amateur" LPL enlarger, and is now discontinued by LPL.
As shown here: http://www.khbphotografix.com/LPL/LPL6700Series.htm
Not bad, but definitely not the same as the 7700s I have.
As shown here: http://www.khbphotografix.com/LPL/LPL7700series.htm
With the VCCE heads, KHB sells the 6700 at $1,200 CDN for a refurbished unit and the 7700 at $3,300 CDN for a new enlarger.
You don't want to know how little I paid for my 7700s - one VCCE, the other colour dichroic.
The badging in the USA is different, even to the extent of different model numbers. My VCCE actually has the US badging.

 

[CMoore]

The 4x5 Saunders/LPL has a clamping mechanism that moves up and down. The medium format models are different, those are the ones where the carrier just slides in snug.

I am happy with my 4x5, but I’d like to get a De Vere 504, for no particular reason. I don’t need more than one enlarger but it would be nice to have.

I sure could be wrong, but it seems like many of the Saunders i have seen were more like a 6x7 machine.?
Like this one below. Seems like the Neg Holder snapped in pretty tight, but maybe the 4x5 is even better.?
Anyway......i want to say most of what i have seen looked like this.......

https://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/lpl-7700mx-colour-enlarger/p679

 

[MattKing]

Like this one below. Seems like the Neg Holder snapped in pretty tight, but maybe the 4x5 is even better.?
Anyway......i want to say most of what i have seen looked like this.......

https://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/lpl-7700mx-colour-enlarger/p679

That is what I have, and is definitely more robust than the version that michael_r has.
Here are the 4x5 versions: http://www.khbphotografix.com/LPL/LPL4x5.htm
And here is the listing for the VCCE version of the 7451 in the KHB store: http://store.khbphotografix.com/LPL-7451-4x5-Enlarger-with-VCCE-Variable-Contrast-Module.html
As you see, $4,600 CDN.

 

[CMoore]

That is what I have, and is definitely more robust than the version that michael_r has.
Here are the 4x5 versions: http://www.khbphotografix.com/LPL/LPL4x5.htm
And here is the listing for the VCCE version of the 7451 in the KHB store: http://store.khbphotografix.com/LPL-7451-4x5-Enlarger-with-VCCE-Variable-Contrast-Module.html
As you see, $4,600 CDN.

I would love to have it, but it would probably be money spent better elsewhere...... oh well.

 

[images39]

I bought a used LPL 4500 II VCCE enlarger about 7 years ago, and have been happy as a pig in mud ever since. It's beautifully designed, and I love the VCCE head, because you can change contrast with little to no change in exposure time. The fine focus adjustment is smooth as silk. From what I've seen, these enlargers (used) have definitely gone up in price since then.

Dale