Enlarger prices ... amazing

[David Lyga]

Sorry to detract from the gross profits of B&H and Freestyle and Adorama, but I must ask with impunity: Does anyone actually pay these obscene prices? The worst enlarger in the world is the rickety Beseler Cadet II and that goes for about USD 350. To obtain a Beseler 23C you are going to have to pay about four times that. To get a 'respectable' enlarger, like the Printmaker, you are going to pay about USD 650. Who the hell is going to pay these prices when you can get this hardware for, maybe, $50 to $100 (or far less) elsewhere in excellent condition? Enlarging lens prices are even more obscene. Did anyone ever hear of the used market offering the same for 20% (or less) of what is asked?

Is this post not justified without being 'villainous by inference'? I think that there is a lot of merit for my temerity to bring up this topic. - David Lyga

 

[faberryman]

It is not surprising that a used enlarger costs less than a new one? What is surprising is that you can still actually purchase a new enlarger.

 

[David Lyga]

The disparity from reality. The difference between used enlargers and their respective lenses is more than profound; it is, instead, to enter a different world. Instead of used offering a savings of, maybe, one third, it offers savings of about 80% - 90%, even more sometimes. That should answer your obvious question, faberryman. - David Lyga

 

[faberryman]

It is simple supply and demand. I've seen enlargers at good prices on Craigslist for months. You can't give them away.

 

[ic-racer]

New enlargers have always been expensive.
Used enlarger prices have risen and used enlargers are harder to find. Makes new enlargers a better value than ten years ago.

 

[choiliefan]

I'd be surprised if B&H makes more than 10-15% on these items if that. Raw materials, manufacturing and storage of product and parts is expensive. Anyone who is serious about setting up a darkroom and not comfortable buying used equipment is going to bite the bullet and pay for new.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

If cars and tires would have lasts as long as enlargers and lenses would do, we would bitch around new cars and tires prices too.
Not just lasts, but to be fully funcional without any deteriation.

Oh, yes, I know one person who purchsed new everything for darkroom couple of years ago.

 

[RattyMouse]

It is simple supply and demand. I've seen enlargers at good prices on Craigslist for months. You can't give them away.

Correct. If people did not pay these prices, then they would either be lower or gone altogether.

 

[Ces1um]

This is the same argument that's posted here time and time again. New stuff is too expensive. Why would you pay that when it's cheaper to buy it used. I should be able to get new for cheaper. It's always the same answer. The new market and the used market are two different markets. Used is always cheaper. New is always expensive. When a product becomes a niche product, then there are fewer sales so the cost per unit goes up. Then people complain that it's a rip off because I can get (insert item here) for a lot cheaper used and its better quality. I think the whole issue is moot because old gear will eventually be unrepairable and because so few people pay for new companies go out of existence.

 

[eddie]

Many institutions ( schools/government) are required to buy their equipment new, with warranties. I’d expect some of the new sales are to them, sometimes in multiples.

 

[Chan Tran]

If cars and tires would have lasts as long as enlargers and lenses would do, we would bitch around new cars and tires prices too.
Not just lasts, but to be fully funcional without any deteriation.

Oh, yes, I know one person who purchsed new everything for darkroom couple of years ago.

If cars and tires last that long then I won't have to worry about buying new cars.

 

[Chan Tran]

This is the same argument that's posted here time and time again. New stuff is too expensive. Why would you pay that when it's cheaper to buy it used. I should be able to get new for cheaper. It's always the same answer. The new market and the used market are two different markets. Used is always cheaper. New is always expensive. When a product becomes a niche product, then there are fewer sales so the cost per unit goes up. Then people complain that it's a rip off because I can get (insert item here) for a lot cheaper used and its better quality. I think the whole issue is moot because old gear will eventually be unrepairable and because so few people pay for new companies go out of existence.

But it's different for enlarger and cars and even cameras. I can look at an enlarger and tell if it's good. Not so much for a camera especially a digital one. A used camera is worth a lot less than a new one but not a used enlarger in my opinion. However, as to answer David question it cost a lot to make new enlargers so the price reflects the cost of manufacturing.

 

[M Carter]

Can you imagine the cost to manufacture an enlarger - a completely specialty-market item with a zillion parts and complex assembly, that has to be aligned and so on? I don't think the new prices seem far off for what you're getting. The fact that the market is flooded with used ones doesn't make manufacturing and shipping a new one cost any less.

Sure, a 23C or an MXT may be unchanged for the last 15 years, still using the same tooling and assembly lines, but they're still complex and parts-intensive machines. I really would love to see Beseler's yearly sales figures, just sheer curiosity about the market.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

If cars and tires last that long then I won't have to worry about buying new cars.

Film and digital cameras lasts this long, but many are buying new and paying much more vs buying used.

 

[removed account4]

Many institutions ( schools/government) are required to buy their equipment new, with warranties. I’d expect some of the new sales are to them, sometimes in multiples.

yup

and sometimes people who are hobbyists ( or pros ) who like the best of the best buy everything new
just because, its new, its less prone to have something wrong that the seller didn't tellyou about
and less beat up. you know like a brand new durst laborator with all the condensor sets
to enlarge up to a 11x14 negative in stalled in the new custom built workspace that rivals
universities or newspaper labs, for beautiful work made with the new leica and full compliment of lenses.
if i was rolling in cash that's probably what i would do. leave the used stuff for people who like used
and buy new ... pros and hobbyists can write off expenses on their taxes so in the end its just fun-stuff

 

[MattKing]

One of the reasons that new enlargers are expensive is transport costs. I've no doubt that the less than $20 USD shipping cost to Washington state that B&H charges is at least indirectly subsidized.
But I will say that the $1,600.00 CDN that B&H wants for a variable contrast Beseler 67XL compares favourably to my imperfect recollection of what I paid for my 67C with XL column and condenser head back in the 1970s - at least once you factor in inflation.

 

[bascom49]

Your premise based on the apparent disparity between new and used is that new equipment is overpriced ?
And that manufactures / suppliers should base their new retail price on the market value of used equipment ? Equipment that is easily 10 to 30 years old ? Indifferent to inflation, etc. ?
So, it would be reasonable to ask a car dealer to give me the same price for a new Honda Accord as what I could find on the used market ?
The constant hand wringing over the loss of film stock and other film photography supplies and equipment coupled with the constant, miserly, penny pinching attitudes as to the prices of new film, chemistry, etc. on this forum never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Ces1um]

But it's different for enlarger and cars and even cameras. I can look at an enlarger and tell if it's good. Not so much for a camera especially a digital one. A used camera is worth a lot less than a new one but not a used enlarger in my opinion. However, as to answer David question it cost a lot to make new enlargers so the price reflects the cost of manufacturing.

The ops initial statement and follow up, posts #1 and #3 state otherwise. He's saying enlargers and their lenses are selling for a discount of more than 80 - 90% off their original prices.

I think the drop in price in the used market reflects the fact that few people shoot film but even fewer people print their own photos and require those enlargers. As a private seller I'm thinking people are realizing there are few people around willing to buy said gear and they drop the price accordingly to snag that one potential buyer.

 

[Peter Schrager]

Your premise based on the apparent disparity between new and used is that new equipment is overpriced ?
And that manufactures / suppliers should base their new retail price on the market value of used equipment ? Equipment that is easily 10 to 30 years old ? Indifferent to inflation, etc. ?
So, it would be reasonable to ask a car dealer to give me the same price for a new Honda Accord as what I could find on the used market ?
The constant hand wringing over the loss of film stock and other film photography supplies and equipment coupled with the constant, miserly, penny pinching attitudes as to the prices of new film, chemistry, etc. on this forum never ceases to amaze me.

I have really nice 6x7 minolta enlarger..now someone should make those again
is it really relevant...the used market for good cheap analog is drying up...10 years ago you could buy almost anything for nothing
Analog is coming into it's own again but not from this website...we need positive threads
Not dread threads

 

[John Galt]

Be thankful for the used market . . I decided to get back into analog photography when I retired 3 years ago. I took my time and found a NOS Beseler 23C II at a non-franchise discount department/appliance/electronics/camera/gun (yes, they also sell guns LOL) store in Syracuse NY for $20.00 because they had, 15-20 years ago, cannibalized the spring and screws that hold the lens board in place. AND it came with a NOS El-Nikkor 80mm on a lensboard. It was in storage in the stores attic, I almost died retrieving it . On a road trip back to my roots and family in NH I checked CL and found a 23c II XL minus base in excellent condition with accessories and other darkroom equipment, paper and chemical at an estate sale for $10 , along with a box of Hasselblad stuff (wont get into that but it was Lotto day for me). Anyway, for 10 bucks I got a whole unit for spare parts . . . plus several negative holders and the heat absorbing glass that goes above the filter tray . . . that alone is $80 plus shipping.

And yes, I agree with Peter Schrager above, the used analog market is drying up, the steals and deals are gone.

 

[John Wiegerink]

One thing that we seem to forget is that there are folks out there that refuse to buy somebody else's treasure no matter how good it looks. Yup, they are the "I only buy new" folks. Or as I call them, "The more money than brains" folks. I just picked up a Omega D6 XL without head (I have two heads/light sources) for $20.00. It was on Ebay twice and nobody in west Michigan seemed to want to pick it up. I will never buy new if I can find what I want in good shape for the right price. My Dutch heritage has saved me big chunks of money and will continue to do so as long as I'm standing upright. It certainly is a buyers paradise when it comes to darkroom equipment that's for sure. JohnW

 

[Paul Howell]

In the Phoenix area, not many good buys, most of the pro level enlargers were sold years ago, those that are selling are asking a lot, not as much as a new enlarger, but more than other parts of the county. Shopgoodwill auction site often has good deals but local pick up only. So being a buyer paradise, depends on where the buyer lives.

 

[John Galt]

There is currently here in NY, on CL a like new Beseler 23C II with a boatload of accessories with a "New in Box" never used Dichro Head and Power Supply for $50 or less . . . if it was not an 8 hour round trip I would snap it up.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

It's surprising there are new enlargers. Not that long ago, excellent enlargers couldn't even be given away - such as a 23c II with color head.

 

[mshchem]

The disparity from reality. The difference between used enlargers and their respective lenses is more than profound; it is, instead, to enter a different world. Instead of used offering a savings of, maybe, one third, it offers savings of about 80% - 90%, even more sometimes. That should answer your obvious question, faberryman. - David Lyga

It's really very simple explanation . Government regulations prohibit purchasing used equipment, states, many cities, schools and universities. Many organizations require multiple quotes on exactly the same item from multiple vendors . As near as I can tell, Beseler if it exists other than a brand is made under contract. A lamp that costs 6 bucks in generic form costs 75 with a Beseler part number attached. I completely understand where you are coming from . It's nuts. But the market is so small no one will enter the market to challenge Beseler . I would be surprised if Beseler sells more than a thousand units a year.
Best Regards Mike