Encouraging news from Jobo

[LJH]

I got the point..;-) I just thought it was a little inflated to no real benefit.

Seeing you got the point, it seems that there was a real benefit.

Not sure where the "Be literal" rule is on this site...

 

[Henning Serger]

And don't forget how much you save on lab fees. If you do any significant volume of film in a year, the machine pays for itself in lab fees in less than 4 years. For example, my local custom lab charges $11/roll for C-41, 35mm or 120, no prints, no scans. B/W is even worse, at $12/roll. If I buy press kits and develop my C-41 in small batches, it's $3/roll. If I can put together large batches, and get 5L chemistry kits, and re-use my chems just once, it drops to about $1.50/roll. Saving between $8-10/roll, 100 rolls a year of either b/w or C-41, in four years a CPP-3 is paid for. And I know on a good year I'll burn north of 100 rolls, maybe closer to 150. And as mentioned, the machines last over 30 years if well cared for and not used commercially.

Yes, I did mention that in my post ("Reduced development costs").
But how much you can save is of course dependent on your film developing volume. And it is dependent on the prices and services offered by the alternative: professional labs.
For example here in Germany I pay less than half (!) even at the best labs compared to your local lab / your example. And film developing via drug store chain shops and the connected big mass volume / industrial scale labs (which are developing millions of films p.a.) is even significantly cheaper compared to the relative cheap German high-end professional labs. Germany has an excellent lab infrastructure.
In such markets probably the other advantages of an own Jobo processor at home are more important:
- the possibility to develop E6, C41, RA-4, BW negative and BW positive/reversal; film and paper; maximum flexibility
- development at highest precision and quality
- total quality control over the development of your materials
- the possibility to develop and get results immediately
- the fun and satisfaction of developing your material by yourself
- for teachers in film photography workshops: immediate results means discussion of the results during the workshop, which is excellent (works of course best with E6 and BW reversal)
- the possibility to develop even in small flats (the CPE-3 is very compact and can be used in a bathroom or kitchen).

By the way: Jobo published the improvements of the CPE-3 yesterday. I quote:
"The new JOBO CPE-3 processor has the following improvements and advantages compared to its forerunner CPE2+:
- about 50% more motor power
- new PCB
- stronger, more stable tub
- a bit enhanced tub, so that in principle 2 developing trays (20x25cm / 8x10") can also be tempered
- new design of the Lift base-plate."
Source:
https://www.facebook.com/JOBOanalog/

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Huh, I'm really surprised they're bundling 1500-series kits.

I've had a BUNCH of 1500-series tanks, reels, cores, and extensions I've been trying to find a buyer for for way too long now. It's interesting that I can't sell the things yet Jobo thinks they're the ones to bundle. Wonder if they can't sell them either!

The 1500-series tanks belong to their core product line. They are selling well. The yearly production is in the 4-digit area. From my experience I can confirm how good the long-term quality is: I started my career as a "lab-rat" as a very young guy at my school time with a 1520 tank. It worked flawlessly for decades. Some years ago I gave it away as a gift to a beginner (who is still using it) and bought another new one for me. I like to work with the Jobo system.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[munz6869]

My CPE-2 is a pre-unification model. This fortnight I've run through 50+ rolls of 120 b&w and 80+ sheets of 5x4" film. I couldn't go back to processing in little tanks - it's a time saver and makes process consistent. I paid (an astonishing) AU$50 for mine secondhand and the motor is starting to go (after 5 years of my constant use) - the motor in these isn't available any more (the supplier stopped manufacture as far as I know, you can still get a replacement for the CPE2+), so when that dies I'll be glad to get a CPE3 that'll last another 30 years or more. They are great machines and very cost effective in the long run...

Marc!

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

The reason I focused on the cost of processing (which is of course very locally variable) is that it is a very tangible, quantifiable justification for buying a Jobo - lots of the complaints about the machine are based on the cost, and no other factor. If your lab costs are high and/or turnaround is very long due to having to send your film out of state, the machine pays for itself very quickly, and can be amortized over the life of the machine to literally pennies a day. Even if your lab costs are not as great as mine, the machine will still pay for itself well within its expected lifetime.

The other reasons you mention for it are also valid - having total quality control and the ability to run whatever process you want in small batches are very convenient, and it gives you the ability to experiment with developers or techniques you would not be able to do if you were sending it out to a lab.

Yes, I did mention that in my post ("Reduced development costs").
But how much you can save is of course dependent on your film developing volume. And it is dependent on the prices and services offered by the alternative: professional labs.
For example here in Germany I pay less than half (!) even at the best labs compared to your local lab / your example. And film developing via drug store chain shops and the connected big mass volume / industrial scale labs (which are developing millions of films p.a.) is even significantly cheaper compared to the relative cheap German high-end professional labs. Germany has an excellent lab infrastructure.
In such markets probably the other advantages of an own Jobo processor at home are more important:
- the possibility to develop E6, C41, RA-4, BW negative and BW positive/reversal; film and paper; maximum flexibility
- development at highest precision and quality
- total quality control over the development of your materials
- the possibility to develop and get results immediately
- the fun and satisfaction of developing your material by yourself
- for teachers in film photography workshops: immediate results means discussion of the results during the workshop, which is excellent (works of course best with E6 and BW reversal)
- the possibility to develop even in small flats (the CPE-3 is very compact and can be used in a bathroom or kitchen).

By the way: Jobo published the improvements of the CPE-3 yesterday. I quote:
"The new JOBO CPE-3 processor has the following improvements and advantages compared to its forerunner CPE2+:
- about 50% more motor power
- new PCB
- stronger, more stable tub
- a bit enhanced tub, so that in principle 2 developing trays (20x25cm / 8x10") can also be tempered
- new design of the Lift base-plate."
Source:
https://www.facebook.com/JOBOanalog/

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

The reason I focused on the cost of processing (which is of course very locally variable) is that it is a very tangible, quantifiable justification for buying a Jobo - lots of the complaints about the machine are based on the cost, and no other factor. If your lab costs are high and/or turnaround is very long due to having to send your film out of state, the machine pays for itself very quickly, and can be amortized over the life of the machine to literally pennies a day. Even if your lab costs are not as great as mine, the machine will still pay for itself well within its expected lifetime.

The other reasons you mention for it are also valid - having total quality control and the ability to run whatever process you want in small batches are very convenient, and it gives you the ability to experiment with developers or techniques you would not be able to do if you were sending it out to a lab.

I completely agree.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Sirius Glass]

I am always amazed at how expensive a home based JOBO set is. $1700 for a film developing apparatus is huge money. Their volume must be absolutely tiny to drive up prices this high.

One is paying for a system that provides consistent results for color and black & white. The cost needs to be amortized on all the film that will be processed. I have found the investment well worth the cost.

 

[RattyMouse]

One is paying for a system that provides consistent results for color and black & white. The cost needs to be amortized on all the film that will be processed. I have found the investment well worth the cost.

The profit margin on these must be enormous.

 

[Henning Serger]

The profit margin on these must be enormous.

No, they are definitely not. Not at all.
I can affirm that as I've seen the factory and the production there.
The new CPE-3 has several improvements and new design elements (see my post above). Therefore new investments in expensive tools were needed. For example a new casting mould for the tub.
And as also already explained, it is low volume production in small series, with a lot of high-skilled handcraft and at very high quality levels. That cannot be done cheaply (especially not in Germany).

Best regards,
Henning

 

[RattyMouse]

Not sure how enormous. Relatively low sales volume and consider all the initial design/setup costs that need to be recouped. Those can be huge.

But I agree in the end it's still a lot of money and I can't see the entry level model being of all that much value to me personally. The higher end model makes more sense, but I can't afford that kind of money.

I dont see the reason for such extreme cost. You can buy an enormous amount of equipment for $1800.

Maybe if I get to see one of these in person it will make sense. Maybe.

 

[williaty]

I dont see the reason for such extreme cost. You can buy an enormous amount of equipment for $1800.

Maybe if I get to see one of these in person it will make sense. Maybe.

I designed a few things that went into production. It was a hell of an eye opener!

The Jobos use molded plastic parts. Lots of them. On one of my desigs, the cost to get the mold made was close to $100,000 per part with a minimum order commitment of a quarter million parts made. Needless to say, the part didn't get made that way. We eventually found a fab that could make the part in a lower quality way at a higher per-unit cost but without such a large minimum commitment and without such a large tooling fee. Jobo probably gets a much better deal but they've still got an enormous cost of tooling to pay off for each new product or design change.

Another design I made was all cut and welded metal, so it was cheaper. I felt I could probably sell about 500 of the pieces, given the size of the potential customer base (obviously a niche market, like Jobo). The fab shop came back with a quote something like they could make me the run of 500 at ~$900/each but if I wanted to order 5,000 units, it dropped to $125/each. If I ordered 100,000 units, the cost dropped under a dollar each. The difference was how much automation it made economic sense to apply. 500 were going to be effectively made by hand. The 5,000 units were going to have everything done by a robot except the welding. The 100k units were going to be robots start to finish. Jobo will be facing similar economies of scale.

 

[RattyMouse]

Jobo will be facing similar economies of scale.

That's probably it. They just dont sell too many of them.

However, if they were made in Asia, the cost would be massively lower. I was in the factory where the Apple MacBook Pro bodies are made. They are machined from a block of aluminum and end up in the shape of laptop case. The machines do the cutting but the entire process is done by hand. People load the aluminum into the machine, remove it from one machine and place into the next, repeat 20 times and then remove from the final machine and QC by hand. It's an enormously human intensive process. The number of people QC'ing each and every hole inside the case is several dozen.

Of course, Apple sells a lot of those so they make up the cost in volume.

 

[williaty]

However, if they were made in Asia, the cost would be massively lower.

The costs I was talking about were for Asian fab and didn't include the large costs to get them back here. A lot of companies are finding out that producing stuff overseas isn't turning out to be as cheap as they thought due to supply chain inefficiencies and are actually bringing production physically closer to retail markets again.

I was in the factory where the Apple MacBook Pro bodies are made. They are machined from a block of aluminum and end up in the shape of laptop case. The machines do the cutting but the entire process is done by hand. People load the aluminum into the machine, remove it from one machine and place into the next, repeat 20 times and then remove from the final machine and QC by hand. It's an enormously human intensive process. The number of people QC'ing each and every hole inside the case is several dozen.

Actually, much of that is done by hand because it's cheaper to abuse a worker than it is to design a robot. If you can risk crushing someone in a 80 ton metal forming press by having them move the stamped part from station to station, it's a HECK of a lot cheaper than designing, building, and maintaining a robot transport system to move the part along the assembly line.

 

[RattyMouse]

The costs I was talking about were for Asian fab and didn't include the large costs to get them back here. A lot of companies are finding out that producing stuff overseas isn't turning out to be as cheap as they thought due to supply chain inefficiencies and are actually bringing production physically closer to retail markets again.


Actually, much of that is done by hand because it's cheaper to abuse a worker than it is to design a robot. If you can risk crushing someone in a 80 ton metal forming press by having them move the stamped part from station to station, it's a HECK of a lot cheaper than designing, building, and maintaining a robot transport system to move the part along the assembly line.

Asia has a supply chain that most westerners cant even begin to imagine. It is massively, massively cheaper to manufacturer in China due to their enormous efficiency here. Wage growth is the major problem increasing costs in China, not inefficiency of supply!

 

[williaty]

Asia has a supply chain that most westerners cant even begin to imagine. It is massively, massively cheaper to manufacturer in China due to their enormous efficiency here. Wage growth is the major problem increasing costs in China, not inefficiency of supply!

Supply chain encompasses everything from the point the raw materials are dug out of the ground to the point the final consumer puts their hands on the item at the store. The major problems are occurring between the factory finishing the product and the destination-side wholesaler taking receipt of it. In other words, companies are getting bit in the butt by problems relating to actually getting the product from the Asian factory to the consumer. Fees, tariffs, rising costs of cargo insurance, immense delays if there is a problem with a shipment, etc. Companies are also finding that there's significant advantages to the design engineers and the factory workers being close enough to get together and discuss issues. Westinghouse (if I remember) just saved an absolute fortune because one of their managers from an assembly line was able to walk upstairs and talk to the design engineers about moving two screws that then allowed the manufacturing to take about half as long.

There's a lot of stuff that's always going to be made in Asia because sacrificing human labor to the problem is the cheapest way to product the thing. However, there's a growing realization that not all production benefits from that.

 

[Ai Print]

Jobo is a small outfit making the best photographic processing equipment money can buy. It has not magically shot up in price either, is actually entirely commensurate to what it has always cost but pricing now reflects both inflation and lower but steady niche demand.

Here is a little video of things being built, a fair amount of hand made items being made by folks like the well known lady who makes the expert drums.



As far as $1,800 buying a lot of equipment, yes, that is because that is what the old guard using this stuff has become self entitled to, super cheap used equipment that used to cost a fortune. So now everyone is expecting it to all be cheap. Cheap film, cheap paper, cheap new darkroom and camera equipment, etc, all available at the push of a "Place Order" Button on their phones, how nice.

Well that is what will kill both further innovation and the availability of new equipment.

I could have kept my CPP2 that I was given for free during the great recession. But I decided to support Jobo buy selling it and buying a brand new CPP3 for considerably more than what the CPE3 costs new. It's a great new machine and everything is improved and if I spend $1-2K on a 3-5 week road trip in producing new bodies of work, the last thing I am going to do is skimp on the quality and consistency of my processing, especially in using 4x5 which is prone to uneven development. In using three 3010 Expert Drums, I can bang out 100 sheets of perfectly developed 4x5 film in a single day. That means in about 10 full processing days, I easily pay for my CPP3, easy math.

I take advantage of good buys in the used market, but I try to buy new too in order to help keep the bigger picture of this market afloat.

 

[RattyMouse]

I am intrigued by this machine. My attempts to get C-41 processed since I moved back to the US have been miserable. I now rarely shoot color film and sort of miss it.

 

[Henning Serger]

I am intrigued by this machine. My attempts to get C-41 processed since I moved back to the US have been miserable. I now rarely shoot color film and sort of miss it.

Developing colour film (E6 and C41) with a Jobo CPP-3 or the smaller CPE-3 is extremely easy and very comfortable. And you get perfect results.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[RattyMouse]

Developing colour film (E6 and C41) with a Jobo CPP-3 or the smaller CPE-3 is extremely easy and very comfortable. And you get perfect results.

Best regards,
Henning

E6 makes it even better. I have several boxes of Astia 100F and no lab to develop it. I may have to get this as an (early) Christmas present to myself.

I need to look and see if there are any on-line brochures that describe these devices in greater detail.

 

[Henning Serger]

E6 makes it even better. I have several boxes of Astia 100F and no lab to develop it. I may have to get this as an (early) Christmas present to myself.

I need to look and see if there are any on-line brochures that describe these devices in greater detail.

All the needed information is delivered with the machine and the developer kits. Just read it, do it as described and get fine results.
Honestly, my experience in my film photography workshops is that even beginners have no problems at all using a Jobo processor and the current colour developer kits.
In the end it is even a bit easier than classic BW hand-agitation development, because for perfect results in BW you have to test your film-developer combination (analysing the optimal characteristic curve). That is not needed in colour development.

There are also lots of demonstration videos on youtube.
For example from our apug-Member and onlandscape-founder Tim Parkin (he is using the old CPE model without lift in this video, with the new CPE-3 with lift the workflow is even easier):


Until you have the new CPE-3, here are lots of excellent E6 US-labs with mail order service:
http://www.agximaging.com/
http://www.theslideprinter.com/
Dead Link Removed
http://www.dwaynesphoto.com/
http://www.northcoastphoto.com/
http://oldschoolphotolab.com/
https://thedarkroom.com/
http://www.bluemooncamera.com/
www.iconla.com

Best regards,
Henning

 

[RattyMouse]

How many rolls of 135 or 120 film can a Jobo CPE-3 do in one cycle?

 

[williaty]

How many rolls of 135 or 120 film can a Jobo CPE-3 do in one cycle?

Depends on your developer. The CPE has a maximum fluid limit of 600mL. So you're limited to however much film your developer can process in 600mL. I use XTOL 1:1, so that 600mL limit turns into 300mL of developer concentrate which in turn can process 3 8x10-equivalent areas. So 3 rolls of 120, 3 rolls of 35mm, or 12 sheets of 4x5. If your developer requires less volume per roll of film, the Jobo tank system will happily take a LOT of film. The 2593 tank will take 12 rolls of 35mm, 14 rolls of 120, or 7 rolls of 220 but the kicker is staying under that 600mL fluid limit.

For C-41, the issue seems a little murkier. Kodak claims that, for optimum quality, you should never develop more than 1 8x10-equivalent in 500mL of developer. So that would limit you to 1 8x10-equivalent in the CPE. However, Fuji has a chart that shows it's ok to use as little as 313mL per 8x10-equivalent, so you could fudge a few mL and get 2 8x10-equivalents in the CPE. This would seem to fall into the realm of test it and see what your results are. Since some people report running 5+ rolls in 600mL and still having good results, there's obviously some fudge factor depending on subject, exposure, and film choice.

The CPA/CPP machines have a 1L fluid limit, if you want to run more at once.

 

[maciekz]

My 2 is a pre-unification model. This fortnight I've run through 50+ rolls of 120 b&w and 80+ sheets of 5x4" film. I couldn't go back to processing in little tanks - it's a time saver and makes process consistent. I paid (an astonishing) AU$50 for mine secondhand and the motor is starting to go (after 5 years of my constant use) - the motor in these isn't available any more (the supplier stopped manufacture as far as I know, you can still get a replacement for the CPE2+), so when that dies I'll be glad to get a CPE3 that'll last another 30 years or more. They are great machines and very cost effective in the long run...

Should you decide to repair the motor you have (which is often possible) the faster you do it the easier the repairs are. Be brave! Electric motors are generally repairable, quite often endlessly so. If you don't find yourself willing or capable you should be able to find a willing repair shop.

 

[unityofsaints]

I'm very excited to see a new processor come out, especially since it's a smaller form factor.

This may come across as naive but as they say the only stupid questions are the ones you don't ask Can this be rigged up to do 8x10 or 5x7? I know officially it's only up to 4x5 but I'm wondering if there will be some aftermarket mods. I know they mention 8x10 open trays but that's a bit too risky for me for C-41/E-6.

Edit: Catlabls lists it as having the capacity to do 3 sheets of 8x10, is it a typo?

 

[williaty]

This may come across as naive but as they say the only stupid questions are the ones you don't ask Can this be rigged up to do 8x10 or 5x7?

Yes. There are doohickies (technical term!) that you can insert into the 2800-series print drums (which can be used with the CPE) to allow you to load 5x7 and 8x10.

Edit: Catlabls lists it as having the capacity to do 3 sheets of 8x10, is it a typo?

The aforementioned doohicky will allow you to load that. With XTOL 1:1, you could process it safely. 3 8x10 units requires 300mL of concentrate, diluted 1:1 makes 600mL, which maxes out the CPE capacity.